Tepper to Coaching Staff: Use Modern Analytics

[Mr. Scot]

29 minutes ago, KneelingCamFan said:

Great post.  I really like Rivera.  I think he's a great coach and one of the better coaches in the NFL, especially considering this is is first time being a head coach. However, I think he can stuck in his ways.  Because Siefert burned him, I think Richardson decided to just stick to Defensive guys like Fox and Rivera.  For Rivera, i think he can get too stuck in his ways (Silatolu WILL START AND YOU WILL NOT TELL ME DIFFERENT) when it's obvious that he's not an NFL starting offensive linemen.  I think you have to strike the right balance between analytics and still the old scouting techniques. I think the Rams and Eagles are two examples of teams that have figured it out...

To be fair, at least you didn't start him this week.

Granted, that's no guarantee it's not going to happen at some point. And a lot of us are scared of what happens when Matt Kalll gets healthy.

[panthers55]

Analytics are fine for trends and looking at past data but not good for play by play analysis in real time. Plus analytics have to be specific to the team and situation. For example throwing on first down for us worked so far this year because we always ran it on first down. So it was unexpected. Now if we start throwing every first down because league wide it works or on our first 2 games it worked we risk becoming as predictable always passing as we were when we ran. Analytics are useful but they have limitations as well. There has to be a balance between stats and getting a feel for the game and the situation at hand. Stats like anything are great when used properly with a clear understanding of their limitations.

[LinvilleGorge]

Maybe he'll analyze the effectiveness (or rather, the lack of effectiveness) of playing the DBs 10 yards off the LOS against teams game planning to get the ball out quickly.

[panthers55]

22 hours ago, MHS831 said:

Right, He is saying use gel pens instead of chisels and stone tablets to increase productivity. 

I am a researcher/professor at a state university--education leadership.  I once wanted to study the impact of data collection on learning styles and adaptability to understand more effective ways to assess talent (draft) and the learning curve for rookies (bust rate).  It was my theory that busts occur because the player does not possess the ability to conform to the demands (dictated by salary and maturation rates for each position).  We were going to work for free for 2 years.

I sent this proposal to the team president (Morrison).  He showed the idea to Richardson, who liked it--they sent it to Hurney and Rivera.  Morrison told me this in a response letter.  He told me Hurney would be in touch.  I never heard from Marty Hurney.  A few weeks, maybe months later, Marty Hurney and Rivera were talking about drafting Amini Silatolu--Marty and Ron liked the way Amini was "throwing people down" at a D-II college.  I watched the film they mentioned--there was no technique.  Silatolu was bigger stronger, and was not using technique.  He was often slow getting off the ball (could not remember snap count?).  As a rookie, his head would often move from side to side, suggesting that he did not understand the game--where the pressure should be coming from--and he was beaten on stunts routinely.  He was often asking Gross or Kalil questions after they broke from the huddle and approached the LOS.  Silatolu is now almost 30, RR still loves him, and he is still dumb. 

So I applaud the owner's ability to identify and address a glaring problem.  To me, the story I shared reflects a lack of in using analytics to support your decisions, although not what Tepper had in mind this time.

 

I don't mean to throw shade but is it possible they turned you down because they didn't think your theory was sound or that your degrees in educational.leadership didn't qualify you to be their go to guy. There are professional analytic companies who specializes in sports and doing this for a living.  There could be alternative explanations besides the idea that Hurney and Rivera are stuck in the past and unwilling to change.  Just saying....

 

[MHS831]

3 hours ago, panthers55 said:

I don't mean to throw shade but is it possible they turned you down because they didn't think your theory was sound or that your degrees in educational.leadership didn't qualify you to be their go to guy. There are professional analytic companies who specializes in sports and doing this for a living.  There could be alternative explanations besides the idea that Hurney and Rivera are stuck in the past and unwilling to change.  Just saying....

 

I did not get into the reasons--I simply showed that there was interest in the front office and none below.  Your point illustrates my point--they did not value my offering (which was going to be for research purposes primarily, not winning a super bowl ring). You misinterpret my purpose so you can "cast shade" on it.  However, they liked the idea and the coaches did not.  I teach school administrators how to teach teachers how to teach.  It works for coaches too.  I know learning styles, teaching styles, emotional intelligence's impact on development, dispositional, cognitive, and psychomotor approaches to enhance the quality of learning. Do you think these companies consider trauma sensitivity in their analysis of players?  My plan did.   All of these things are essential to football because they are essential to human development--basic Maslow. To speed the learning process through holistic awareness and integrated development might improve success rates.   Now, what i did not say is that I partnered with Linda Darling-Hammond and members of the SCALE center at Stanford to develop this model.  While some of these companies you mention are established,  are they successful?--if so, then why is the success rate for first rounders just above 50%?  I know what I know, but I do not really know what they know.  So your approach, to suggest a new angle is not going to be successful (or would be rejected) based on the fact that others that do it, fail- is not conducive to the spirit of growth through analytics.   While my point was to illustrate the difference between a front office and a coaching staff approach to analytics, I can only tell you what I know about learning and development--I  cannot tell you what these companies do, except  that they are not that successful.  You can't cast shade on that because you aren't really informed enough  about my proposal or these companies' approaches to do so--and I do not mean that as a zinger--it is simply pointing out the obvious weaknesses in your argument-you criticize my proposal without knowing its content and after twisting its purpose and attempt to disqualify it by comparing it to companies that have success rates so poor my proposal was at least entertained.  Just sayin..

[Cary Kollins]

holy fug Silatou was a second round pick?!>?!!!

 

 

jesus sorry I must have blocked that from my memory

Hurney fugging magic

[Tbe]

On 9/18/2018 at 2:35 PM, MHS831 said:

Right, He is saying use gel pens instead of chisels and stone tablets to increase productivity. 

I am a researcher/professor at a state university--education leadership.  I once wanted to study the impact of data collection on learning styles and adaptability to understand more effective ways to assess talent (draft) and the learning curve for rookies (bust rate).  It was my theory that busts occur because the player does not possess the ability to conform to the demands (dictated by salary and maturation rates for each position).  We were going to work for free for 2 years.

I sent this proposal to the team president (Morrison).  He showed the idea to Richardson, who liked it--they sent it to Hurney and Rivera.  Morrison told me this in a response letter.  He told me Hurney would be in touch.  I never heard from Marty Hurney.  A few weeks, maybe months later, Marty Hurney and Rivera were talking about drafting Amini Silatolu--Marty and Ron liked the way Amini was "throwing people down" at a D-II college.  I watched the film they mentioned--there was no technique.  Silatolu was bigger stronger, and was not using technique.  He was often slow getting off the ball (could not remember snap count?).  As a rookie, his head would often move from side to side, suggesting that he did not understand the game--where the pressure should be coming from--and he was beaten on stunts routinely.  He was often asking Gross or Kalil questions after they broke from the huddle and approached the LOS.  Silatolu is now almost 30, RR still loves him, and he is still dumb. 

So I applaud the owner's ability to identify and address a glaring problem.  To me, the story I shared reflects a lack of in using analytics to support your decisions, although not what Tepper had in mind this time.

 

Make the proposal again. Tepper might force Ron’s hand this time.

[panthers55]

4 hours ago, MHS831 said:

I did not get into the reasons--I simply showed that there was interest in the front office and none below.  Your point illustrates my point--they did not value my offering (which was going to be for research purposes primarily, not winning a super bowl ring). You misinterpret my purpose so you can "cast shade" on it.  However, they liked the idea and the coaches did not.  I teach school administrators how to teach teachers how to teach.  It works for coaches too.  I know learning styles, teaching styles, emotional intelligence's impact on development, dispositional, cognitive, and psychomotor approaches to enhance the quality of learning. Do you think these companies consider trauma sensitivity in their analysis of players?  My plan did.   All of these things are essential to football because they are essential to human development--basic Maslow. To speed the learning process through holistic awareness and integrated development might improve success rates.   Now, what i did not say is that I partnered with Linda Darling-Hammond and members of the SCALE center at Stanford to develop this model.  While some of these companies you mention are established,  are they successful?--if so, then why is the success rate for first rounders just above 50%?  I know what I know, but I do not really know what they know.  So your approach, to suggest a new angle is not going to be successful (or would be rejected) based on the fact that others that do it, fail- is not conducive to the spirit of growth through analytics.   While my point was to illustrate the difference between a front office and a coaching staff approach to analytics, I can only tell you what I know about learning and development--I  cannot tell you what these companies do, except  that they are not that successful.  You can't cast shade on that because you aren't really informed enough  about my proposal or these companies' approaches to do so--and I do not mean that as a zinger--it is simply pointing out the obvious weaknesses in your argument-you criticize my proposal without knowing its content and after twisting its purpose and attempt to disqualify it by comparing it to companies that have success rates so poor my proposal was at least entertained.  Just sayin..

First of all I know a ton about learning theory, human dynamics with my advanced degrees in psychology. I have taught at the high school and university level and ran ma million dollar successful business for over a decade so spare me the you know more speech. You said it yourself, you are a researcher trying to prove a point about an area you know little about which is football. Plus you assume with your analytics that you are valuable because normally 50% of 1st rounders bust. But I can tell you that Hurney is hiting on his first rounders at a much higher rate than that. So maybe instead of giving him advice you should be asking what he is doing right. The obvious weakness in your argument is you have no proven track record in professional football and adnittedly know little about what they do. So again why should they listen to you. It is fine to sit in your ivory tower and act all knowing. But they live in the real world which most career educators just pontificate about.

[panthers55]

2 hours ago, Tbe said:

Make the proposal again. Tepper might force Ron’s hand this time.

The fallacy might be assuming Ron doesn't like analytics and needs to be forced into it. The simplier explanation is he didn't see the value of conducting research. With the NFL being a win now league he needs solutions immediately not down the road. 

[Tbe]

19 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

The fallacy might be assuming Ron doesn't like analytics and needs to be forced into it. The simplier explanation is he didn't see the value of conducting research. With the NFL being a win now league he needs solutions immediately not down the road. 

But thats Ron’s problem. Tepper is trying to figure out how to create long term competitive advantages. HE may want it.

[Panthro]

Oh sorry this staff only uses anal licks

[panthers55]

1 minute ago, Tbe said:

But thats Ron’s problem. Tepper is trying to figure out how to create long term competitive advantages. HE may want it.

Analytics means lots of things like analyzing your own tendencies and those of your opponent in addition to overall trends and tendencies like percentage of success on fourth down, etc. Analytics has it's place but this isn't stocks and monetary trends like the world Tepper came from. Ron knows this I am sure. He uses analytics every day with his team. I am sure that he could improve on it and will. But let's not assume analytics are the be all, end all or Cleveland would be a playoff contender instead instead of 0-17-1 since last year with all their fancy analytics.

[Tbe]

9 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Analytics means lots of things like analyzing your own tendencies and those of your opponent in addition to overall trends and tendencies like percentage of success on fourth down, etc. Analytics has it's place but this isn't stocks and monetary trends like the world Tepper came from. Ron knows this I am sure. He uses analytics every day with his team. I am sure that he could improve on it and will. But let's not assume analytics are the be all, end all or Cleveland would be a playoff contender instead instead of 0-17-1 since last year with all their fancy analytics.

Never said it would revolutionize football. But the possibility of some tool, technique, or research that is unique to the franchise should be worth pursuing. 

Experimentation is where innovation comes from.

Anyway, It’s been well documented that Cleveland has ignored their analytics at times to their detriment. Example: Drafting Jonny football.

[panthers55]

1 minute ago, Tbe said:

Never said it would revolutionize football. But the possibility of some tool, technique, or research that is unique to the franchise should be worth pursuing. 

Experimentation is where innovation comes from.

Anyway, It’s been well documented that Cleveland has ignored their analytics at times to their detriment. Example: Drafting Jonny football.

No one said analytics aren't useful or shouldn't be used. You seem to assume the Panthers don't use them. A guess or you have evidence they don't? I showed you where they do every week. Stats and trends are a piece of the puzzle but not  the only answer or we could just draft from the combine and just use numbers to make decisions