The little town of Almost Heights

[Mr. Scot]

So in an attempt to put Ron Rivera in proper perspective, I'm going to name off some current and former NFL head coaches. As I do, I want you to think about how good you'd consider them to be.

The names...

Gary Kubiak

Pete Carroll

Jon Gruden

George Seifert

Jim Harbaugh

Bruce Arians

Dan Quinn

John Fox

Let's take a brief look at each of them.

Kubiak won a Super Bowl, then retired not long after due to "health reasons". While the general consensus is that this was in fact his true motive, it hasn't stopped some from speculating about the "real reason" for his departure. The Broncos had gone all in for a win that year, and Kubiak knew it. It is legitimately possible that Kubiak saw what was coming around the curve and got out before it hit the Broncos head on. Prior to the Broncos "all in" Super Bowl season, Kubiak had generally been considered to be a middling level head coach. The Broncos have likewise been a middling team since his departure.

Pete Carroll also won a Super Bowl in spectacular fashion after years of mediocrity as a head coach at the NFL level, his efforts buoyed by the success of a once in a lifetime draft class that helped build a stifling defense. Carroll followed that up by losing a Super Bowl in humiliating fashion, then watching the amazing defense that had helped lead them to the prior victory fall apart, piece by piece. Last year, he took apart his coaching staff as well.  Now he's talked about as being in danger of losing his job; some would say deservedly so.

Gruden? He won a Super Bowl right out of the gate after taking over the Bucs, though critics like to say the team owes Tony Dungy a ring for that win. His good luck in coaching against the team he'd only recently left - and whose strengths and weaknesses he knew rather well - is also considered a factor. In the seasons that followed though, he captained a team that descended into mediocrity and ultimately resorted to mutiny to run him out of town. He's made his way back to NFL coaching of course, now making the most of his second opportunity to torment the people of Oakland.

Remember when George Seifert was talked up as the guy with the best winning percentage in NFL coaching history? That didn't last, did it? Mind you though, Seifert does have a Super Bowl ring as a head coach from his days in San Francisco. He probably could've continued there successfully had he not gone to ownership and basically said "Give me a huge raise or I'll take my ball and go home". The 49ers called his bluff, but the Panthers broke his fall. Just a few short years later though, Seifert had performed so poorly that Jerry Richardson decided to never again hire a retread head coach.

Ahhh, Jim Harbaugh: the first choice of many a Panthers fan when the team was in the midst of their most recent head coaching search. Harbaugh reached the Super Bowl, only to be smacked away from victory by his own brother. His relationship with 49er owners soured after that, and eventually he was escorted out of the building and down to the college level.

Ron Rivera and Bruce Arians alternated back and forth between Coach of the Year titles over about a four year period.  There was talk that Rivera and Arians would be an elite NFC rivalry for the next decade, but it wasn't to be. The Cardinals under Arians ultimately fizzled.  More recently, Arians retired to the broadcast booth. Frankly, he's not that hot there either.

Quinn?  There's not really much I have to tell you about that guy.  The numbers '28' and '3' are probably all most Panther fans need to hear to identify him.  Since that particular disaster, calling the Falcons a roller coaster would almost be a compliment.

Lastly, John Fox. What to make of this man's career? Fox is still technically the most successful Panthers head coach not named Ron Rivera. He amazingly managed to be the head coach for three different NFL teams without actually having been fired from the first two. That's kind of impressive when you think about it, but his coaching prowess was not impressive enough to keep him employed by the Bears.

So what are these guys to Ron Rivera?

Well, four of them could technically be considered his superiors.  Kubiak, Carroll, Gruden and Seifert all achieved something that Ron Rivera still has not, i.e. a championship. 

Others would be his equals.  Fox, Quinn and Harbaugh all made it to within one game of immortality, but failed to take the final step.

That leaves Arians, who I mention primarily because of his status as a two-time NFL Coach of the Year.  Some folks like to point out that Rivera has those credentials also. I remind them of Arians as a way of conveying just how little that really means.

Now, put together Rivera's superiors, his equals and his award winning competitor and tell me what most of them have in common.

If your answer is that all but two of them have parted ways - in most cases on something less than amicable terms - with the team where they were the most successful, you're correct.  Only Carroll and Quinn are still with the same team, and there's speculation that Caroll is on the proverbial hot seat.  Carroll is the only coach with a Super Bowl ring to still be attached to the team where he won it.  Of the others who won a championship, only Gruden is still coaching in the NFL, that largely because Mark Davis exists and - depending on your beliefs - fate is cruel or God is vengeful.

Besides that, even among those who have achieved a higher level of success than Rivera, what do you not see here?

The answer: Consistency.

The truly great NFL head coaches are men who had more than just "flash in the pan" success. Coaches like Joe Gibbs, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll and (much as we might dislike him) Bill Belichick have proven themselves worthy of elite status and honor.  Those mentioned here are, shall we say, a notch or two below that.  Even the most successful out of the group only saw brief moments at the top.

So this is the neighborhood that Ron Rivera's level of success provides sufficient funds in which to buy a home. Along with hs neighbors - Quinn, Harbaugh and Fox - Rivera can look up the hill at their more successful counterparts and around at his own more moderate surroundings.   

If we were to give this place a name, "Almost Heights" might be appropriate.

How good does that neighborhood look to you?

[Sean Payton's Vicodin]

If u find yourself in the same neighborhood as John Fox and Jon Gruden, its time to find a new home

[t96]

Scot, how many head coaches have multiple SB wins?

[Mr. Scot]

10 minutes ago, t96 said:

Scot, how many head coaches have multiple SB wins?

All the elite guys I mentioned plus several others, but that's not the point.

Rivera is still on the level of guys who haven't even managed a single win. And I don't exactly see this year as being one where that changes.

[amcoolio]

Come on, this thread is ridiculous. Why didn't you put Andy Reid or Sean Payton on here? Payton has had many mediocre to bad years and one SB win ages ago. Andy Reid is even worse, especially in the playoffs.

Basically the Panthers should fire Rivera and just keep hoping to find the next Belichick, Gibbs, Landry, Noll every year? What kind of plan is that?

[stankowalski]

Why was Belichick not successful in Cleveland?  Tom Brady made him successful.  I'm interested in seeing how well Belichick does once Brady retires. 

[kungfoodude]

Ron Rivera had the best winning percentage and will likely eclipse John Fox for the most wins in the history of the franchise. I think we need to be aware that although he is not an elite coach and he is certainly flawed, he has also led us to the most successful period in our history. 

The Lions loss was upsetting and Ron deserves his share of the blame, as it was a team effort. But he didn't cause our patchwork OL to wilt, he didn't cause our running game to be DOA against a subpar rushing defense, he didn't cause our kicker to leave 4 easy points on the board, he didn't cause our defense to struggle to get any pressure on a very suspect offensive line unit, he didn't cause our receivers to drop balls, he didn't cause our defensive backs to have coverage breakdowns and he didn't cause our QB to miss an open throw to take the lead. The coaches didn't get it done and neither did the players. 

The story of this season isn't written yet. How we rise to the occasion after this obvious slump will say a lot about the future of Ron, his coordinators and the current players. But let's not get carried away with cliff jumping. This was an extremely flawed roster from the onset of the season and these are two first year(for us) coordinators. Suffice it to say that the offense has been a welcome surprise given the challenges we expected coming into the season and the defense has been a disappointment considering it is largely the same unit we fielding last year that was very good on average. 

Let's just attempt to chill out and see where this is headed. I for one had no illusions of this being a Super Bowl caliber roster and we are still TECHNICALLY in the driver's seat for a playoff spot. 

TLDR, chill the fug out.

[Toolbox]

1 hour ago, stankowalski said:

Why was Belichick not successful in Cleveland?  Tom Brady made him successful.  I'm interested in seeing how well Belichick does once Brady retires. 

lol tom brady is not the reason why belichick is successful.. matt cassell and jimmy garoppolo filled in nicely for him when he went down.

[raz]

anyone who brings up rivera and bellicheat in comparison with eachother is insane.    ne ain't perfect, but they are usually ready with a great game plan.   that is not us.   we are ready with great athletes and rarely credited with great game plans.

the other thing most of those guys have in common, they're old.   the nfl game has passed them by.   pete is doing better this year, but he's trying to go back to 70's ball too.  rivera lives in the past and every year and new draft class comes in he's just a little more out of touch with the youth.   

[stankowalski]

1 hour ago, Toolbox said:

lol tom brady is not the reason why belichick is successful.. matt cassell and jimmy garoppolo filled in nicely for him when he went down.

Explain Cleveland then.

[BIGH2001]

4 hours ago, t96 said:

Scot, how many head coaches have multiple SB wins?

Exactly.  Or better yet, how many active coaches have multiple SB wins?  The NFL is an up and down league.  Wasting time worrying about why we aren't the patriots is pointless.  

[Gamecockfan40]

Consistent mediocrity isn't the answer.  The goal should always be the Lombardi.  Shooting for the playoffs with an early or second round exit doesn't mean poo.  Everyone seems to think Tepper is a gunslinger who will radically change our teams historical outlook on performance.  I sincerely hope they are right for the sake of my sanity.  The fact that we still have a coach who prides himself on the idea that his team plays smashmouth football in a clearly offensive minded league is laughable.

[Mr. Scot]

Reid is technically more successful than Rivera at this point. They've both been to the Super Bowl and lost (Rivera can at least lay claim to the fact that his quarterback didn't puke on the field) but while both have had game day coaching issues, Reid's teams rarely look as unprepared as Rivera's.

I considered including him here, but he has at least an outside shot of changing his legacy this season. Rivera, not so much.

Also, with regard to Rivera taking an outdated approach to football, that's probably not going to change and you can thank John Madden for that. Madden encouraged Rivera to do things his way, and he's embraced the notion.

To his credit, at least he fired Shula and Dorsey, though I still think the impending change of ownership probably had a lot to do with that.

[trueblade]

I consider Jeff Fisher and John Fox as coaches in the Rivera mold.

Bears fired Fox, got Nagy. The results appear to be positive.
Rams fired Fisher, got McVay. The results appear to be positive.