clearing up this kyle allen vs cam newton battle

[Saca312]

4 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

Its 2019, not 2017.

don't even need to argue any further if you think a difference in years makes cam's ability to go through his progressions and reads any different.

fwiw, his ability to look off safeties and going through his progressions has been evident since game 1 of 2011 against the cardinals.

but i digress. if you think kyle allen is better than a healthy cam newton then idk what to tell you bud.

[Saca312]

4 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

pure pocket passer which requires more than he's done to this point. 

quick question: how has cam not been a pocket passer up to this point?

kind of curious. how often has he really "scrambled out of the pocket?" designed runs aren't exactly scrambles, by the way. nor is him taking off and running.

like when he's throwing, just want to know whether he throws from a pocket or off a scramble/bootleg more often.

watch his games, and the answer becomes quite clear.

the idea cam's never been a pocket passer has always been laughable. he's been one since 2011.

[Khyber53]

We won't know a thing about either man until mid-November. Allen has come in and performed remarkably well for a guy with his experience and complete lack of draft position. In many ways he reminds me of Jake Delhomme, if you replace Jake's plucky gunslinger ways with accurate passing.

But the other guy, that Cam Newton guy, has been a historical game changing player. There are and have been some weak spots in his game, but they are almost always covered up by the things he can do that no other single NFL player could. Cam has been a phenom throughout his career. How he comes back from this injury and handles things will determine an awful lot, but there isn't a single one of us that can predict exactly how he will perform when he comes back into the spotlight. No one.

No matter how well Allen is doing, Cam gets his shot and deservedly so. And if Cam can take the reins back and perform, then we should be so incredibly grateful to have Allen backing him up that we look at immediately giving Allen a Derek Anderson-like paycheck. A couple of years on the bench behind Cam, spelling the great one now and then, could turn Allen into our next starting QB down the road, an experienced one that has the confidence of his team and teammates.

[Saca312]

11 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

We won't know a thing about either man until mid-November. Allen has come in and performed remarkably well for a guy with his experience and complete lack of draft position. In many ways he reminds me of Jake Delhomme, if you replace Jake's plucky gunslinger ways with accurate passing.

But the other guy, that Cam Newton guy, has been a historical game changing player. There are and have been some weak spots in his game, but they are almost always covered up by the things he can do that no other single NFL player could. Cam has been a phenom throughout his career. How he comes back from this injury and handles things will determine an awful lot, but there isn't a single one of us that can predict exactly how he will perform when he comes back into the spotlight. No one.

No matter how well Allen is doing, Cam gets his shot and deservedly so. And if Cam can take the reins back and perform, then we should be so incredibly grateful to have Allen backing him up that we look at immediately giving Allen a Derek Anderson-like paycheck. A couple of years on the bench behind Cam, spelling the great one now and then, could turn Allen into our next starting QB down the road, an experienced one that has the confidence of his team and teammates.

well said.

[raz]

i'll be pleasantly surprised if cam comes back and plays well.   he's getting too old to be a runner and without that threat the D's will play us different.  i don't think he can be an effective qb without running. i think he's too competitive to not run.  i'm not sure how his shoulder really is or how much punishment it can take.   i'm expecting him to be let go at the end of the season.   but if he comes back and balls out we've got a helluva football team

[uncfan888]

1 hour ago, thebigcat said:

You're not factoring that

Cam is gonna cost $30+ million a season

Allen is pennies to that dollar

Cam's best days are behind him

Cam's accuracy is middle of the road, without being able to run he's avg as a QB

And thebigcat is a moron

[DeAngelo Beason]

I don't see how anyone can make any judgments about what Kyle Allen's ceiling is when he's only played two games.  He could be better than Tom Brady.  How the fug are we supposed to know?  All he does is throw the ball accurately and win football games so far.

[GoobyPls]

2 hours ago, Hoenheim said:

so If Allen goes 11-0 and Cam goes 0-12 you would pay Cam 30+ Mil and keep him as the starter ?? 

Why do people keep bring up records? Yesterday we won in spite of Allen, last week we won cause of Allen. Wins without context doesn’t mean sh*t.

 

Trubisky went 12-4, I wouldn’t pay him a nickel. Jared Goff went to the SB last season, I wouldn’t pay him either. 

[Seoul_Panther]

3 hours ago, Saca312 said:

since this board has collective amnesia and/or a vitriolic tendency to commit to one side of the "cam newton vs kyle allen" spectrum, let me clear a few things up.

-No. Kyle Allen is not better than a healthy Cam Newton. Stop kidding yourselves. Even with Kyle Allen reaching his best form he won't even touch Cam's peak. Let's just end that ridiculous notion there.

-No. Kyle Allen does not suck. He's a more than capable backup that has starting potential for plenty of other teams. He does a lot of things right that not many QBs can do, and he still is learning/growing as a player. As more experience comes, his ball handling will be better, he'll step up in the pocket more, and he'll go through his progressions more efficiently.

-No. Kyle Allen should not remain the starter when Cam Newton comes back 100% healthy. Cam is (gasps) actually a more accurate thrower in tight windows in more tense situations than Kyle Allen has shown. He handles pressure better. His "overthrows" are the most overblown narrative out there and completely ignorant in the eyes of anyone who's actually watched his film. He also has more experience.

-No. Cam Newton has not sucked ever since 2015. It's like some of you have collective amnesia from the latter 2017 and early 2018 run where Cam was on a hot streak and in the MVP conversation. I dare say his performance in the 2017 playoffs was the best I've ever seen from Cam, especially considering the context of his o-line and practice squad WRs and outplaying a solid Drew Brees' performance. In fact, a healthy Cam Newton is better than his 2015 form, as he's been more accurate than before.

-No. Just because Cam Newton is a better QB than Kyle Allen doesn't mean Allen sucks. 

-Yes, it is possible for both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton to be good QBs. That can be mutually true without the clash of "blah blah blah Kyle Allen suxs" and "blah blah blah Cam Newton suxs." Pretend we have two capable starters on the team, because that's our current situation. It's just the one with more experience, an MVP award, superbowl appearance, multiple playoff wins, multiple NFL records, ROTY award, etc. happens to be the better option. That's a fact. Kyle Allen is still good but to hold him to the standard of Cam is idiotic and to downplay his impact for us is also moronic.

-Yes, it's fair to question Cam's health going forward. nothing is proven until played on the field. 

-Yes, it's idiotic to assume he'll suck going forward still.

-Yes, it's still moronic to assume Cam has sucked after 2015 or never lived up to that form.

-Yes, it's possible to support the Panthers if you like both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton.

-Yes, it is possible to enjoy a win without turning it into a Kyle Allen vs Cam Newton warzone. I mean we're 2-2 trending up now that's all that matters.

Just my few cents on this matter.

 For the most part I agree with this post  Cam has put his body on the line for years and absolutely should be afforded QB1 duties when he thinks he's ready. However when he comes back we should acknowledge that he bears responsibility for game outcomes. He will be judged on what he does and he is in the midst of an historically bad run  No more excuses 

 In the spirit of fair mindedness I don't agree with your comments that the book is written on what a second year QB 'could' be. It is highly unlikely that Kyle will ever get close to what Cam achieved in 2015 but to have already decided his ceiling seems like lazy analysis. Cam is nowhere near his best meanwhile an UDFA QB  gets no credit:

 Game 1- It was their reserves

 Game 2-Arizona are rubbish

 Game 3- His fumbles could have cost us-bailed out by D 

Looking forward to game 4 to see the next excuse.

[GoobyPls]

Unless Allen has a repeat performance from week 3 next week, I’m starting Cam if he’s healthy. Allen has limitations and this o line isn't gonna get any better.

 

Last year with a healthy Cam we destroyed a great ravens D

[Bama Panther]

2 hours ago, Saca312 said:

he's already proven he's worth the whole franchise after saving rivera's ass multiple multiple times and keeping it in relevancy to the point he's sacrificed his body and basically his potential future and health.

That’s the problem in your thinking. You don’t pay people for what they have done. That gets a team in cap hell. See, Hurney I Years. A team should pay based upon what the player can do for the team in the future. At this point, based on Cam’s recent play and inability to stay healthy, the Panthers should not pay him $30M/year. If Cam comes back and shows that his shoulder can hold up and that it is healthy enough for him to drive the ball down the field on target consistently, then you get up towards that number. 

[PanthersNC1984]

Cam is thin skinned, with Cam, had he faced that early adversity with the fumbles like Allen did, he would have folded and took the team down with him. 
 

Allen brushes it off and wins. Bottom line is this, Allen Vs 2015 Cam? I’m taking Cam all day long.. Allen vs 2019 Cam? It’s Allen all the way for me

[BrizzMachete]

3 hours ago, Saca312 said:

since this board has collective amnesia and/or a vitriolic tendency to commit to one side of the "cam newton vs kyle allen" spectrum, let me clear a few things up.

-No. Kyle Allen is not better than a healthy Cam Newton. Stop kidding yourselves. Even with Kyle Allen reaching his best form he won't even touch Cam's peak. Let's just end that ridiculous notion there.

-No. Kyle Allen does not suck. He's a more than capable backup that has starting potential for plenty of other teams. He does a lot of things right that not many QBs can do, and he still is learning/growing as a player. As more experience comes, his ball handling will be better, he'll step up in the pocket more, and he'll go through his progressions more efficiently.

-No. Kyle Allen should not remain the starter when Cam Newton comes back 100% healthy. Cam is (gasps) actually a more accurate thrower in tight windows in more tense situations than Kyle Allen has shown. He handles pressure better. His "overthrows" are the most overblown narrative out there and completely ignorant in the eyes of anyone who's actually watched his film. He also has more experience.

-No. Cam Newton has not sucked ever since 2015. It's like some of you have collective amnesia from the latter 2017 and early 2018 run where Cam was on a hot streak and in the MVP conversation. I dare say his performance in the 2017 playoffs was the best I've ever seen from Cam, especially considering the context of his o-line and practice squad WRs and outplaying a solid Drew Brees' performance. In fact, a healthy Cam Newton is better than his 2015 form, as he's been more accurate than before.

-No. Just because Cam Newton is a better QB than Kyle Allen doesn't mean Allen sucks. 

-Yes, it is possible for both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton to be good QBs. That can be mutually true without the clash of "blah blah blah Kyle Allen suxs" and "blah blah blah Cam Newton suxs." Pretend we have two capable starters on the team, because that's our current situation. It's just the one with more experience, an MVP award, superbowl appearance, multiple playoff wins, multiple NFL records, ROTY award, etc. happens to be the better option. That's a fact. Kyle Allen is still good but to hold him to the standard of Cam is idiotic and to downplay his impact for us is also moronic.

-Yes, it's fair to question Cam's health going forward. nothing is proven until played on the field. 

-Yes, it's idiotic to assume he'll suck going forward still.

-Yes, it's still moronic to assume Cam has sucked after 2015 or never lived up to that form.

-Yes, it's possible to support the Panthers if you like both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton.

-Yes, it is possible to enjoy a win without turning it into a Kyle Allen vs Cam Newton warzone. I mean we're 2-2 trending up now that's all that matters.

Just my few cents on this matter.

“Nope nope nope Kyle Allen makes plays cam could never make . You see him escape that watt sack . Cam never break out of sacks . You see how he bounce back from fumbling every time he gets touch . Cam could never do that. He would’ve sulked the whole game he never bounced back like that before “. Carolina huddle logic and we know why . But fr i hope both are successful it’s about the team not one player with me 

[mav1234]

I agree with the sentiment, but we know a lot less about Kyle Allen than you seem to suggest Saca.  Overall, I agree with you, but we are comparing players in completely different stages of their careers.  Cam deserves a shot when he comes back 100%, Allen has done quite well and could still improve markedly.  I also think the Cam narrative is twisted and inaccurate right now because he has been playing injured, and fans have short memories.

But this forum is getting obnoxious with the Cam vs Allen hate.  I love Allen is doing well, and I'll love when Cam comes back too.