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What matters: a QB’s talent or their situation?

Tbe

By Tbe,
in Carolina Panthers

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ThPantherFan Grand Master

ThPantherFan

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

Both. Talent can only get a qb so far in this league. It takes a well built and coached team to maximize that talent.  

Very true statement.  It's bad at the Panthers table because we don't have a head coach that knows what to do and the line, until we see what we get during the off season, isn't good.

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NCTHFL0567 Experienced

NCTHFL0567

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5 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Nothing Bill Belichick did made Tom Brady who he is. That was all Tom Brady.

That's why he kept winning and Bill has fallen off.

Yeah, Brady won a SB FFS. I think it's about the percentage you stated. However, I will say it helps to be in a solid organization from the get go. 

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BULLETPRQQF Explorer

BULLETPRQQF

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The easiest answer to this question would be our last Superbowl matchup against the Denver Broncos. Cam had an MVP season, yet couldn't do $HIT in the bowl because of the lack of talent we had around him. The offensive line was poo and got exposed when we went up against a talented defense. We held our own as a unit on defense against Peyton Manning.....but our offense couldn't do "diddly poo" 🤷🏿‍♂️

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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20 minutes ago, NCTHFL0567 said:

Yeah, Brady won a SB FFS. I think it's about the percentage you stated. However, I will say it helps to be in a solid organization from the get go. 

Not to mention, twice Belichick failed to recognize Brady's greatness. Once when Bledsoe was starting over him(remember he broke through because of injury not winning) and the second time when he tried to keep Jimmy G over Brady.

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NCTHFL0567 Experienced

NCTHFL0567

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3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Not to mention, twice Belichick failed to recognize Brady's greatness. Once when Bledsoe was starting over him(remember he broke through because of injury not winning) and the second time when he tried to keep Jimmy G over Brady.

Fair points. He's the greatest NFL coach ever. But he has chinks in his armor just like Saban does in CFB. 

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SCO96 Veteran

SCO96

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7 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

Both. Talent can only get a qb so far in this league. It takes a well built and coached team to maximize that talent.  

Great point. Show me a Hall of Fame coach, and 95% of the time he coached a Hall of Fame QB or very good one.

 

Paul Brown--Otto Graham

Weeb Eubank--John Unitas, Joe Namath

Lombardi--Bart Starr

Shula--John Unitas, Bob Griese, Dan Marino

Landry--Roger Staubach

Noll--Terry Bradshaw

John Madden--Ken Stabler

Tony Dungy--Peyton Manning

Dick Vermeil--Kurt Warner

Bill Belichik--Tom Brady

Bill Cohwer-- Big Ben

Jimmy Johnson--Troy Aikman

Bud Grant--Fran Tarkenton (The never won, but were in 3 SB between 1973-1976)

Bill Parcells--Phil Simms (not HoF, but very close...could be if he wasn't injured during the Giants 2nd SB run/win. He was the MVP of the 1986 SB win over Elway and the Broncos).

Joe Gibbs is the major exception. He won 3 SB's  (1982, 1987, 1991)with 3 different QB's, and none of them are in the HoF:

1) Joe Theisman was a good QB, 1983 MVP, career cut shut due to injury

2) Doug Williams (not an all time great but from a scrubb)

3) Mark Rypien (not great but had a great 1991 season)

-----

Great QB's need good (if not great) coaching and solid teams around them to win. Quarterbacks just can't will themselves to world championships. And coaches can't put JAGs behind the center and expect SB titles.

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SCO96 Veteran

SCO96

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36 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Nothing Bill Belichick did made Tom Brady who he is. That was all Tom Brady.

That's why he kept winning and Bill has fallen off.

Not true all. Brady himself would be the first to admit that Belichik and (Charlie Weis) had huge impact on his development as a player. People who lionize they guy tend to overlook certain facts about some of his SB wins.

He didn't win the first two SB games (Adam Vinitari did. If he misses those kicks SB history is vastly different)

The Patriot defense was the driving force on the 1st three SB wins (2001-2005. It stifled opposing offenses. Brady was good, but nowhere near as great as he's been on the back half of his career.

Malcom Butler won SB number 4. Brady was on the bench when his team properly diagnosed a play and ended a would be dynasty in Seattle.

Brady didn't even throw a TD pass in SB win #6. Belichik and Flores just shut down the Rams potent offense. Easily the worst Patriot team to win a SB...even NE fans admit that.

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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1 minute ago, SCO96 said:

Not true all. Brady himself would be the first to admit that Belichik and (Charlie Weis) had huge impact on his development as a player. People who lionize they guy tend to overlook certain facts about some of his SB wins.

He didn't win the first two SB games (Adam Vinitari did. If he misses those kicks SB history is vastly different)

The Patriot defense was the driving force on the 1st three SB wins (2001-2005. It stifled opposing offenses. Brady was good, but nowhere near as great as he's been on the back half of his career.

Malcom Butler won SB number 4. Brady was on the bench when his team properly diagnosed a play and ended a would be dynasty in Seattle.

Brady didn't even throw a TD pass in SB win #6. Belichik and Flores just shut down the Rams potent offense. Easily the worst Patriot team to win a SB...even NE fans admit that.

Yeah and Jordan owes his career success to Phil Jackson, right?

 

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SCO96 Veteran

SCO96

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30 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah and Jordan owes his career success to Phil Jackson, right?

 

You could make that argument. I know Jordan could've won championships with another coach in the NBA. But, it's unlikely he wouldn't have won 6 championships in 8 years if Phil Jackson had not been his coach and if he had played for a team with a worse FO than the one he had in Chicago. 

Jordan is the best 2-guard ever. I do not believe Jordan needed Phil to elevate his physical gifts. Phil created a team environment to enable MJ to win championships: two entirely different things. 

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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I don't know if there's a set ratio for it. Probably varies case by case.

I've long said that David Carr might have been able to succeed had he not been subjected to some of the worst coaching and roster management imaginable in his first few years with the Texans.

On the flipside, I think you could have put Johnny Manziel in the best situation possible and he still would have been a bust.

Guys that go really high in the draft tend to either be going to chronically terrible teams or teams that have stumbled and are starting over. The latter group might have a chance, but the first group is generally doomed.

There are exceptions of course, but this is the way it tends to go.

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Jackie Lee Grand Master

Jackie Lee

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It's tricky because say the Chiefs, they were a good roster but couldn't win the Super Bowl until they got Mahomes. Though now with the O-line falling apart Mahomes obviously can only do so much himself, and now with Tyreek leaving it'll be interesting to see how much a dent that puts in his QB numbers. 

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CarolinaRideorDie Mentor

CarolinaRideorDie

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I think there are very few generational QBs that can win regardless of situation. Ex. Tom Brady, Rodgers, Manning. But fit is probably the most important factor. McVay went to 2 superbowls with 2 different QBs and ultimately won one with Stafford and Stafford never went to a superbowl before. McCarthy is carried by Rodgers and Dak, and Dak can't win a play off game with McCarthy. Mahomes is great but would he be as successful without Andy Reid...IDK? 

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