PFF ranks the 2025 starting QBs

[frankw]

37 minutes ago, Icege said:

I appreciate the measured tone, truly. Hopefully we're at a point where we can dive a little deeper into the discussion.

The observation about his footwork is fair in theory, but I'd also counter with 6'1" Brock Purdy recently admitting that he can't see his target on 40% of his throws due to the linemen in front of him. He just inked a massive deal, and while a lot of fans are understandably wondering what he's going to do with reduced weapons, "not seeing over the line" just doesn't seem to be that big of a disqualifier with his understanding of timing, leverage, and pre-snap reads (Aaron Rodgers is 6'2"... bet he's dealt with the same). Bryce is likely dealing with similar challenges due to his size, but it clearly doesn't mean it can't be managed at a high level. Also, I'm not convinced that "prototypical footwork" should be the end goal for a QB that isn't built like the prototype. What matters more is timing and rhythm with his receivers... which, as we've both noted, has been evolving as the WR room flips from vet stopgaps to rookies. He will need to improve there. That's not in dispute.

What is in dispute is the impact that footwork is having on his ability to process and execute. The earlier suggestion that he's “hopping around” to see the field implies a frantic or panicked visual search, which just isn’t something we’ve seen reflected in either the film or any reliable breakdown. If it were as exaggerated as described, it would’ve become a meme-worthy moment (or at least been on SportsCenter's Not Top 10). Instead, we've seen a QB who, like many young passers, occasionally loses platform stability under pressure. That is something that's common and correctable, and again, not something that shows up with enough frequency to suggest it's an endemic flaw. It’s worth continuing to track, but to argue it's a defining issue requires stronger proof than anecdote.

As for the "investments" made in the offense after drafting Bryce, I think that might be stretched a bit. Yes, we've used back-to-back firsts on WRs and signed guards to big contracts. But beyond that?

• Mingo (2nd) and Diontae (FA) are gone.
• Zavala (4th) was the worst-rated OL in the league his rookie year
• Sanders (4th) and Evans (5th) are mid-round TEs. Tremble was given a small contract extension but is said here to be at best a blocking TE2.
• Jimmy Horn Jr (6th) and Coker (UDFA) are the other WR investments
• Corbett + BC got one-year deals coming off of injury
• Cade Mays was tendered, but he was cut to start last season

That's not some overwhelming infusion of elite talent. It's better, sure... but acting like it's some embarrassment of riches feels overstated. Expecting instant chemistry and impact from rookies and second-year guys while simultaneously mocking the idea of contending this year also feels a little... off?

So far, what I've heard as your criteria boils down to red zone efficiency and intermediate passing to the sidelines? You mentioned moving the ball inside the 20s... I'd recommend 3rd down conversion rate, big-time throws, and turnover-worthy plays. For red zone play specifically, we could look at turnovers inside the 20. Incompletions in the red zone as well as intermediate sideline incompletions could provide an interesting starting point for film study. Hell, any of these would give us a more objective framework to work from if you're open to using them. Do any of them work for you?

I had a huge response typed up for this that I lost entirely so I'm starting from scratch which is annoying but sh*t happens.

I think Purdy is a high end game manager. I've made my thoughts known. I think he is talented and is at his best in the areas of timing rhythm and accuracy. When playing within the structure and scheme of that Shanahan offense and the talent around him he can be really good. Where his limitations become pronounced and more evident is when he has to go toe to toe with dynamic elite QB's. Which obviously isn't a problem just limited to him. But he's been given almost 200 million dollars guaranteed so that's an issue. I think the 49ers will struggle to get back to the mountain top with his new contract looming large and certainly they will face a very steep climb to somehow winning another championship.

As far as Bryce within the pocket there have been numerous discussions here and even video circulated of him bouncing around the pocket like a pogo surveying the field or having both feet off the ground to deliver a pass. It exists even if you or someone else doesn't want it to. And I get why. But it's up to Bryce and Canales to figure out how to not only get his footwork where it needs to be and keep it there but to build a scheme around Bryce and what he does best and fit his limitations into a formidable offense.

Look brother we can get into the weeds about this but I will respectfully say I do not believe you are being consistent here. You have gone out of your way as one of the key voices complaining about how striking the lack of quality talent and coaching was around Bryce Young in 2023. You've also been a key voice who has gone out of your way to sprinkle sunshine and rainbows on just about any discussion around every Panthers player and anything Panthers in general. Which is fine and can be a good thing. It's not for everyone but still more power to you. But it's jarring to see that and then you here now in what I can only describe as downplaying the talent around Bryce when it comes time to shield him from what you perceive to be unfair criticism which others such as myself would argue is not only fair for a first round pick but wholly realistic given the resources we surrendered to be able to draft him. The current FO have made an undisputed effort to build around Bryce given the aforementioned limitations created by the trade. There is never going to be a time where Bryce or any other Panthers QB is going to have elite or all pro level talent across the entire offense. But the FO has put talent around him. If you want to say that this is young and undeveloped talent in some areas that's fine but they are building around him.

I'm going to be honest with you I cannot recall ever hearing this "big time throw" metric being mentioned in past conversations about Panthers QB's. I mean if Bryce or any other QB is making franchise QB or fringe elite QB  level throws we can recognize that with our own eyes. We have seen this from Bryce  which was a relief and very welcomed sight but now it's up to him to prove he can sustain that because in fairness we've seen some pretty impressive passes from past QB's who ultimately didn't pan out who were arguably more phsyically talented than Bryce. 3rd down conversion and turnover worthy plays are certainly something to hone in on. Bryce did improve in the redzone in that final stretch of games. However one key area to keep an eye on will be passing plays to the middle of the field. That's been an issue for us and Bryce both with turnovers and with bad moments from our receivers with bad drops. 

We'll have to see what Dave Canales has planned for all of this within his scheme. I don't expect miracles but I do expect a competent formidable offense that is enjoyable to watch in 2025. That's the minimum expectation and I do not believe it is at all unreasonable.

[woahfraze]

9 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Bryce had 191 yards 55% completion 1 td 1 pick.  That's an amazing performance?   Come on people

I’m not going to sit here and say he played “amazing” in this game against the Eagles, but you’re selling this performance short. Stats do not tell the whole story here. 

If Leggette doesn’t drop that late 32 yard pass, Bryce ends up with 223 yards and 2TDs and doesn’t end up with 2 additional incompletions after that drop trying to force things to the end zone at the end of the game. So that’s be 20-32 instead of 19-34, good for a 62.5% completion percentage. His YOA would be 6.96 and his QB rating would have been 91.2. And the story everyone is talking about after the game is how Bryce led a game winning drive to beat one of the best teams in the league, the team we did not know at the time would become Super Bowl champions. 

But none of that happened all because of an awful drop by Leggette, something totally out of Bryce’s control. Bryce played well that game. 

[NAS]

8 hours ago, woahfraze said:

I’m not going to sit here and say he played “amazing” in this game against the Eagles, but you’re selling this performance short. Stats do not tell the whole story here. 

If Leggette doesn’t drop that late 32 yard pass, Bryce ends up with 223 yards and 2TDs and doesn’t end up with 2 additional incompletions after that drop trying to force things to the end zone at the end of the game. So that’s be 20-32 instead of 19-34, good for a 62.5% completion percentage. His YOA would be 6.96 and his QB rating would have been 91.2. And the story everyone is talking about after the game is how Bryce led a game winning drive to beat one of the best teams in the league, the team we did not know at the time would become Super Bowl champions. 

But none of that happened all because of an awful drop by Leggette, something totally out of Bryce’s control. Bryce played well that game. 

More so than the stats it was against that killer defense in their own stadium, the same defense that made Mahomes look like a total JAG in the SB. The way Bryce handled adversity all game was simply phenomenal , the off script play in the end zone, scrambling out of a sack/safety to find XL deep was one of the best plays we have seen out of a Panthers QB on what should have been a game winning drive

[kungfoodude]

45 minutes ago, NAS said:

More so than the stats it was against that killer defense in their own stadium, the same defense that made Mahomes look like a total JAG in the SB. The way Bryce handled adversity all game was simply phenomenal , the off script play in the end zone, scrambling out of a sack/safety to find XL deep was one of the best plays we have seen out of a Panthers QB on what should have been a game winning drive

It was nice to see us take them and KC to the wire. If we make a step forward as a team this season, we can look at those close losses and say that was really the start of the turnaround.

Conversely, if we have similar results as last season, it's likely just going to fade into history.

 

[Icege]

14 hours ago, frankw said:

I had a huge response typed up for this that I lost entirely so I'm starting from scratch which is annoying but sh*t happens.

I think Purdy is a high end game manager. I've made my thoughts known. I think he is talented and is at his best in the areas of timing rhythm and accuracy. When playing within the structure and scheme of that Shanahan offense and the talent around him he can be really good. Where his limitations become pronounced and more evident is when he has to go toe to toe with dynamic elite QB's. Which obviously isn't a problem just limited to him. But he's been given almost 200 million dollars guaranteed so that's an issue. I think the 49ers will struggle to get back to the mountain top with his new contract looming large and certainly they will face a very steep climb to somehow winning another championship.

As far as Bryce within the pocket there have been numerous discussions here and even video circulated of him bouncing around the pocket like a pogo surveying the field or having both feet off the ground to deliver a pass. It exists even if you or someone else doesn't want it to. And I get why. But it's up to Bryce and Canales to figure out how to not only get his footwork where it needs to be and keep it there but to build a scheme around Bryce and what he does best and fit his limitations into a formidable offense.

Look brother we can get into the weeds about this but I will respectfully say I do not believe you are being consistent here. You have gone out of your way as one of the key voices complaining about how striking the lack of quality talent and coaching was around Bryce Young in 2023. You've also been a key voice who has gone out of your way to sprinkle sunshine and rainbows on just about any discussion around every Panthers player and anything Panthers in general. Which is fine and can be a good thing. It's not for everyone but still more power to you. But it's jarring to see that and then you here now in what I can only describe as downplaying the talent around Bryce when it comes time to shield him from what you perceive to be unfair criticism which others such as myself would argue is not only fair for a first round pick but wholly realistic given the resources we surrendered to be able to draft him. The current FO have made an undisputed effort to build around Bryce given the aforementioned limitations created by the trade. There is never going to be a time where Bryce or any other Panthers QB is going to have elite or all pro level talent across the entire offense. But the FO has put talent around him. If you want to say that this is young and undeveloped talent in some areas that's fine but they are building around him.

I'm going to be honest with you I cannot recall ever hearing this "big time throw" metric being mentioned in past conversations about Panthers QB's. I mean if Bryce or any other QB is making franchise QB or fringe elite QB  level throws we can recognize that with our own eyes. We have seen this from Bryce  which was a relief and very welcomed sight but now it's up to him to prove he can sustain that because in fairness we've seen some pretty impressive passes from past QB's who ultimately didn't pan out who were arguably more phsyically talented than Bryce. 3rd down conversion and turnover worthy plays are certainly something to hone in on. Bryce did improve in the redzone in that final stretch of games. However one key area to keep an eye on will be passing plays to the middle of the field. That's been an issue for us and Bryce both with turnovers and with bad moments from our receivers with bad drops. 

We'll have to see what Dave Canales has planned for all of this within his scheme. I don't expect miracles but I do expect a competent formidable offense that is enjoyable to watch in 2025. That's the minimum expectation and I do not believe it is at all unreasonable.

Just to be clear: I'm not "downplaying" the talent around Bryce... I'm qualifying it. There's a big difference between saying, "we finally have building blocks that we're actually developing" and "we've done enough to say this is a finished product, NO EXCUSES!" It's possible to believe that the 2023 situation was bad and to believe that the current state, while improved, is still incomplete. That's not inconsistency; that's nuance.

As for the footwork stuff, again, I've seen the same clips as others. The claim that Bryce is hopping to see over the line just isn't one I've seen corroborated by analysts or tape breakdown. "Both feet off of the ground to throw" happens a ton for QBs (ex: Mahomes, Rodgers, Purdy, etc.), especially when improvising.

You're right that there were some encouraging flashes from Bryce last season, and it's nice to finally hear that after so much time was spent pretending otherwise. I'm not arguing that Bryce is elite, I'm just asking that we evaluate him using consistent, measurable criteria to determine his status as a top-10 QB... whether it's via 3rd down %, red zone efficiency, turnover-worthy plays, or yes, big-time throws (which, by the way, has been a valid part of QB evaluation across the league for years even if it wasn't used here during Kyle Allen or Teddy Bridgewater's years. For reference: Allen had 20 BTT at a 3.9% rate. Teddy had 17 BTT at 3.3%).

Like you, I'm hoping to see a competent, entertaining offense this season. That's a baseline we can all root for, even if we don't have the same baseline for what makes a QB top-10 (which, to be fair, is what this conversation has been about... though I respect the attempt to reframe it).

[Icege]

19 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I think the "Top 10" classification is much more simple than people think, at least for me.

Put every QB in the league into a re-draft of only QB's, does this player go in the Top 10 of that draft or not?

If they do, they're a Top 10 QB, if they don't, they're not.

And yes, things like age/contract would matter in a real QB draft, but in this instance things like that or future injury concern are thrown aside, essentially looking at it on a year to year type of thing as you're talking about a current Top 10 list.

I can't get behind a purely subjective re-draft as a method of defining "top-10 QB" status. That invites bias based on vibes/hypotheticals and can ignore actual on-field performance. You and others have said that Bryce has to be a top-10 QB to justify the pick. That's a high bar, which I'm not against, but we need a clear, consistent way to measure it.

When I bring up metrics that Bryce has registered in the top-10 in like BTT%, P2S ratio, catchable deep ball rate, etc... they're waved off as either irrelevant or the expected baseline performance. Meanwhile, volume stats like passing yards or win-loss records, both of which depend heavily on roster talent, health, and coaching, are treated as definitive.

That's where the inconsistency kicks in. If no performance metric ever counts in his favor and the answer is always going to be "he should be doing that," then we're not evaluating him... we're just holding him to a curve he can't win against.

If this is really about performance standards, then let's define them. But if it's just about confirming prior takes based on height and weight, then let's call it what is it and stop pretending that this is a football analysis discussion.

[kungfoodude]

2 hours ago, Icege said:

Just to be clear: I'm not "downplaying" the talent around Bryce... I'm qualifying it. There's a big difference between saying, "we finally have building blocks that we're actually developing" and "we've done enough to say this is a finished product, NO EXCUSES!" It's possible to believe that the 2023 situation was bad and to believe that the current state, while improved, is still incomplete. That's not inconsistency; that's nuance.

As for the footwork stuff, again, I've seen the same clips as others. The claim that Bryce is hopping to see over the line just isn't one I've seen corroborated by analysts or tape breakdown. "Both feet off of the ground to throw" happens a ton for QBs (ex: Mahomes, Rodgers, Purdy, etc.), especially when improvising.

You're right that there were some encouraging flashes from Bryce last season, and it's nice to finally hear that after so much time was spent pretending otherwise. I'm not arguing that Bryce is elite, I'm just asking that we evaluate him using consistent, measurable criteria to determine his status as a top-10 QB... whether it's via 3rd down %, red zone efficiency, turnover-worthy plays, or yes, big-time throws (which, by the way, has been a valid part of QB evaluation across the league for years even if it wasn't used here during Kyle Allen or Teddy Bridgewater's years. For reference: Allen had 20 BTT at a 3.9% rate. Teddy had 17 BTT at 3.3%).

Like you, I'm hoping to see a competent, entertaining offense this season. That's a baseline we can all root for, even if we don't have the same baseline for what makes a QB top-10 (which, to be fair, is what this conversation has been about... though I respect the attempt to reframe it).

I think the recent breakdown video of Bryce(posted in here) shows really the biggest issue from a play callers standpoint that hurts Bryce. He is very often off schedule because he has poor footwork and it can lead to him looking around what appears to be aimlessly because he is waiting for the play to unfold. It also impacts his decision making because he is making decisions before the play is really able to unfold.

[frankw]

4 hours ago, Icege said:

Just to be clear: I'm not "downplaying" the talent around Bryce... I'm qualifying it. There's a big difference between saying, "we finally have building blocks that we're actually developing" and "we've done enough to say this is a finished product, NO EXCUSES!" It's possible to believe that the 2023 situation was bad and to believe that the current state, while improved, is still incomplete. That's not inconsistency; that's nuance.

As for the footwork stuff, again, I've seen the same clips as others. The claim that Bryce is hopping to see over the line just isn't one I've seen corroborated by analysts or tape breakdown. "Both feet off of the ground to throw" happens a ton for QBs (ex: Mahomes, Rodgers, Purdy, etc.), especially when improvising.

You're right that there were some encouraging flashes from Bryce last season, and it's nice to finally hear that after so much time was spent pretending otherwise. I'm not arguing that Bryce is elite, I'm just asking that we evaluate him using consistent, measurable criteria to determine his status as a top-10 QB... whether it's via 3rd down %, red zone efficiency, turnover-worthy plays, or yes, big-time throws (which, by the way, has been a valid part of QB evaluation across the league for years even if it wasn't used here during Kyle Allen or Teddy Bridgewater's years. For reference: Allen had 20 BTT at a 3.9% rate. Teddy had 17 BTT at 3.3%).

Like you, I'm hoping to see a competent, entertaining offense this season. That's a baseline we can all root for, even if we don't have the same baseline for what makes a QB top-10 (which, to be fair, is what this conversation has been about... though I respect the attempt to reframe it).

I'm glad we can find common ground on these issues. I think most of the folks in the fanbase are burned out from not only the losing but the same discussions. This is a put up or shut up year in many ways for sure. Hopefully things go relatively according to plan and come December we are talking about further building around our core and competing for the playoffs in the not so distant future instead of bickering about why this or that was a failure yet again. Here's to hoping