Bryce's Achilles Heel Is Not What You Think It Is

[Bear Hands]

Speaking generally to this whole thing—

I would say taking a play out of structure too soon isn’t always the riskier option with a higher reward. You’re crashing the call and going out of structure when maybe you didn’t need to. Attempting a premature escape does not inherently have a high reward. But yeah, it’s risky ball. Especially when your not outpacing IDLs.

Sometimes the higher risk/reward option is staying in a crowded pocket, not letting it break down, stepping up and making the big time throw.

Now, if we’re saying it’s impossible to judge, and there’s so many factors, it’s a complicated position to evaluate, sure but then saying something with so much certainty that his biggest weakness is that he’s too aggressive — I don’t, I just don’t see that. Like at all.  And nothing has really convinced me otherwise. You can’t just keep going on about how it’s so intricate and difficult to understand but be so certain about this one thing.

And all that aside, pocket work, mechanics and footwork have been the flashing red sirens since day 1 more than physical traits (we drafted him knowing he was a historic outlier) - do we just not want to acknowledge it? It’s even been communicated straight from the horses mouth…the coaches and team saying what he needs to work on the most.

I appreciate the perspective, but nothing here has convinced me Bryce is somehow this aggressive type. Still open, but I don’t see it

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Speaking generally to this whole thing—

I would say taking a play out of structure too soon isn’t always the riskier option with a higher reward. You’re crashing the call and going out of structure when maybe you didn’t need to. Attempting a premature escape does not inherently have a high reward. But yeah, it’s risky ball. Especially when your not outpacing IDLs.

Sometimes the higher risk/reward option is staying in a crowded pocket, not letting it break down, stepping up and making the big time throw.

Now, if we’re saying it’s impossible to judge, and there’s so many factors, it’s a complicated position to evaluate, sure but the saying something with so much certainty that his biggest weakness is that he’s too aggressive — I don’t, I just don’t see that. Like at all.  And nothing has really convinced me otherwise. You can’t just keep going on about how it’s so intricate and difficult to understand but be so certain about this one thing.

And all that aside, pocket work, mechanics and footwork have been the flashing red sirens since day 1 more than physical traits (we drafted him knowing he was a historic outlier) - do we just not want to acknowledge it? It’s even been communicated straight from the horses mouth…the coaches and team saying what he needs to work on the most.

I appreciate the perspective, but nothing here has convinced me Bryce is somehow this aggressive type. Still open, but I don’t see it

He has rarely been aggressive enough to be considered a gunslinger type player. The guy he is describing is Pat Mahomes-esque and I doubt any of us see that in Bryce. 

When the play is breaking down or he bails on the play, how often are we really seeing him laser it into a tight window? How about scramble long enough to get someone breaking free and then hitting them? I remember that far less, although I am not sitting down to look at all 2.5 years of data, than I am checkdowns, throw aways, off target passes, scrambles, etc. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

He would be ahead of a good chunk of the backup QB's we see struggling at the moment but starter vs. starter it is really hard to get too many guys that you wouldn't rather have the other guy in a one game scenario. I can understand the ample reasons to not want guys like Flacco and Rodgers at their ages but if you just base it on this roster and one game to win....I would rather have both of those guys.

Expand that to the rest of the league and it quickly becomes obvious where Bryce is.

 

15 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

It becomes damn near impossible if we exclude guys who are backups forced into playing by injury. 

Even considering Cam Ward's rookie struggles if the Titans called me offering a straight up trade Ward for Bryce I'm taking it. Is Bryce playing better right now? Yes. But I'd be getting a more talented prospect and more years of a rookie QB contract. Put an OL in front of him and a 200 yard RB behind him and I think Ward is at least equal to Bryce st the moment with a lot higher ceiling.

The term that we are working towards here is "replacement level".  

[MRenshaw]

49 minutes ago, fieryprophet said:

Great, then you design your own quarterback metric, write your own algorithm for it, scrape years of statistics, code your own website, and post it. Let's see your intelligence at work.

How about you grow a pair of eyes first and then take your nerdy QB metric and statistics and shove them up where Bryce currently belongs.

[mrcompletely11]

1 hour ago, Navy_football said:

Yeah, but that's kind of my point. But this is a results-driven league, so there's that. 

Bryce doesn't play like a bottom tier QB to me. Every QB gets bailed out by his receivers a couple of times in every game. I just rarely ever see that in Carolina. Even Tmac hasn't really bailed Bryce out yet. I think he'll become that guy but he isn't that right now. Thielen was the closest thing to it, and he really isn't the type of athlete at this point in his career that should be your go to receiver anyway. How many plays can you think of in the last 2-3 years where a receiver made a play on a ball that you didn't think he'd be able to? I remember J. Sanders catching a jump ball last season. Maybe that short throw to TMac this season where he went WAY up to get it. Just don't see those plays too much here. What you do see a lot of is the ball hitting receivers in the hands and them not coming down with it. 

That's what happened with XL early in the season and dude just lost all confidence in him. He wasn't coming back to the ball. He wasn't high pointing passes. He wasn't muscling defenders or even getting his feet down in bounds when he had a chance. Those are things you need to expect from your receivers if your gonna throw a pass that isn't to a wide open guy. Just my opinion. 

who in your opinion is bryce playing better than?  I can maybe name 3/4 guys maybe.

[mrcompletely11]

1 hour ago, AceBoogie said:

I never threatened to fight anyone. I’ve only offered you to give your opinions to my face. Face to face debate doesn’t need to result in violence. It does however change the tone and manner of which you speak. 

log off, simply log off, the lack of self awareness you are displaying is stunning

[Bear Hands]

17 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

He has rarely been aggressive enough to be considered a gunslinger type player. The guy he is describing is Pat Mahomes-esque and I doubt any of us see that in Bryce. 

When the play is breaking down or he bails on the play, how often are we really seeing him laser it into a tight window? How about scramble long enough to get someone breaking free and then hitting them? I remember that far less, although I am not sitting down to look at all 2.5 years of data, than I am checkdowns, throw aways, off target passes, scrambles, etc. 

He’s had some good moments in spots. I’d want to check back at his games to not speak completely out of my as$ but I have never got the sense he’s been able to execute that type of gunslinger play consistently or enough for me to think he is one.

The best “gunslingers” types out there aren’t necessarily always retreating from the pocket on a whim. They’re still going through progressions. They are gritty and stick in it, getting dinged up when they need to and/or being elusive while still looking downfield. 

Bryce has been on a good trajectory the past two weeks behind a great supporting run game — still doesn’t negate that he needs to work on his pocket work to best effectively navigate the out of structure work at this level. It’s all about the drop backs, the spacing, staying active yet composed, not leaving a play too soon. His best work last week was stepping up into the pocket to find McMillan - that first TD to him was perrrrty.

[LinvilleGorge]

9 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

 

The term that we are working towards here is "replacement level".  

Yep. That's why I've been saying that if Bryce continue to be an effective game manager I wouldn't be opposed to picking up his 5th year option to buy us more time. I wouldn't be thrilled about it but I'd understand it. I just wouldn't feel any pressing need to do anything right now because no one should be surprised if Bryce takes another slide when our RB doesn't play like prime Adrian Peterson.

[csx]

What is PFF season grade for Young?

[mrcompletely11]

30 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

If we divide the league up into quarters you need to be able to make 8 worse starting QBs for him not to be bottom tier. Who are they?

Justin Fields

Russ wilson (who is not even starting any more)

Dillion Gabriel(?) maybe

JJ Macarthy

Rattler? (maybe)

 

I mean the list is kindof dubious and rather telling when you do this exercise   

[mrcompletely11]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yep. That's why I've been saying that if Bryce continue to be an effective game manager I wouldn't be opposed to picking up his 5th year option to buy us more time. I wouldn't be thrilled about it but I'd understand it. I just wouldn't feel any pressing need to do anything right now because no one should be surprised if Bryce takes another slide when our RB doesn't play like prime Adrian Peterson.

Thats what mac and bone were saying today but the rub on that is this, it locks him in for 2 more years at around 30 million in the 5th.  And a lot of jobs are riding on that if this goes south or doesnt get better

 

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, mrcompletely11 said:

And a lot of jobs are riding on that if this goes south or doesnt get better

 

That's part of the problem. Do the right thing long-term and let Bryce walk to roll the dice and it'll get you fired if we go backwards in the short-term. Pick up his option and keep limping along and it might buy you another year of employment at the cost of potentially setting back the organization moving forward.  The right thing to do is move on but I get why if you're sitting in Panthers' HQ you feel caught between a rock and a hard place and find yourself desperately clinging to the hope that Bryce will work out while deep down likely understanding that's a pipedream.

[fieryprophet]

17 minutes ago, MRenshaw said:

How about you grow a pair of eyes first and then take your nerdy QB metric and statistics and shove them up where Bryce currently belongs.

Ahh, so you're actually not capable of any developing your metric, coding your own scraping and metric calculation system, and have it automatically publish to your own website on a nightly basis? Well that's just unfortunate.

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

That's part of the problem. Do the right thing long-term and let Bryce walk to roll the dice and it'll get you fired if we go backwards in the short-term. Pick up his option and keep limping along and it might buy you another year of employment at the cost of potentially setting back the organization moving forward.  The right thing to do is move on but I get why if you're sitting in Panthers' HQ you feel caught between a rock and a hard place and find yourself desperately clinging to the hope that Bryce will work out while deep down likely understanding that's a pipedream.

as I have said all year, the runway has run out this year.  The rookie contract is awesome when your guy hits, however when its this it works against you.  Status quo I dont see how you can run it back for 2 more years knowing his limitations.  You are starting from behind the 8 ball each week