Why does Bryce get the blame?

[*FreeFua*]

2 minutes ago, frankw said:

This is the second time someone has thrown Matt Kalil in my face and I am just flabbergasted anyone thinks that is some kind of gotcha. That was always a very stupid decision and a panic move fully created by Dave Gettleman's lack of ability to build an OL through the draft despite his entire persona revolving around hog mollies.

And while throwing Matt Kalil in my face you wholly omit the fact that Cam Newton had this team competing in the division with Byron Bell on his left and Nate Chandler on his right. Then we added Amini Silatolu for good measure.

Is there a specific reason you're wanting to go back 15 years now? Suddenly you don't want to discuss the amount of money and draft capital we have tied up in this offense present day?

If you want to take a stroll down memory lane let's talk turkey.

From 1998 to 2013 the Panthers never selected a first round WR in any draft. That's none in fifteen years. FIFTEEN YEARS.

Then after drafting Kelvin Benjamin we didn't draft another WR in the first round until 2018. 

We have drafted first round WR's in back to back drafts in 2024 and 2025 including at 8th overall for the first time in franchise history.

We left the linebacker room to be a complete empty void in order to continue to build up this offense.

If you truly see any parallels with our historic investment in the offense present day to past teams you might as well be Mr. Magoo. This was always primarily a defensive team identity wise for the better part of 2 decades and any Panthers fan worth their salt knows this. Why I'm having to argue this with you is absurd.

You’ve already made it quite clear the names/players attached to these picks or contracts don’t matter 

And we both know I was one of the biggest Cam defenders and always said they did a HORRIBLE job at surrounding him with talent DESPITE the money or picks spent

So like I’ve been saying just because we spent X amount or X picks that don’t mean much 

[*FreeFua*]

7 minutes ago, frankw said:

 

Is there a specific reason you're wanting to go back 15 years now? Suddenly you don't want to discuss the amount of money and draft capital we have tied up in this offense present day?

 

 

1 hour ago, *FreeFua* said:

The Panthers are 9th in cap spent on offense this year. 

However next season is already a different story 

The Panthers as it stands right now will be 18th in cap spent on offense and 8th in cap spent on defense 

The Panthers are currently set to spend more on defense next year than they are on offense this season

Guys like Jaycee and Moehrig cap numbers take a big jump. Wharton has a massive cap hit

 

Jaycee Moehrig and Wharton in 2025

The same 3 in 2026

So this same defense as it stands right now will cost more in 2026 than this offense does right now…

Got anything else you want to try?

I covered all that here

[*FreeFua*]

7 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

So from 20-22 of those 14 picks on defense, how many are still on the team. 2. Two whole picks. 

2023

2 defensive picks in the 3rd and 5th rounds. Neither on the team. 

2024. 2 and 1 on the PS. 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th, round picks used. 

2025. 2,3,4 and 5 spent on defense. 

The entirety of what we've spent on defense doesn't even equal the one pick we used on Tet in trade value chart for draft pick exchange. 

You could argue we spent 30 draft picks on defense but if they were all in the seventh round, the value of those picks is next to nothing in terms of contribution. Day 3 picks rarely make NFL squads. They only make the Panthers because our roster is so threadbare as it is. 

Again, we've spent next to nothing on defense in terms of value picks on defense. If you're going to argue we've spent more on defense than we have on offense you're going to have to use a better argument than this. 

Those goal posts seem to be mooooovin

This is what you said 

41 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

You know why we've spent so much in FA on defensive contracts for next year? Could have something to do with next to nothing spent in the draft on defense until this year. When you don't draft anyone on defense you have to pay for them. 

You also have 2 1st round WRs and your QB on rookie contracts for next to nothing against the offensive cap for their position and a LT that hasn't been paid his top 5 contract yet.  

Care to try anything else? 

I proved that isn’t the case 

We’ve had 5 top 10 picks the last 6 drafts (christ that’s pathetic btw. We actually had earned a 6th but traded it)

1 QB

1 WR

1 LT

1 DL

1 CB

Truthfully even going back a bit our draft history is pretty even 

[strato]

33 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

Every year from 2013-2018 we spent more money on offense than we did on defense 

Handed out a 5 year 55 million dollar deal (30gtd) for a left tackle 

As far as draft picks…

From 2011-2018

Two 2nd rounders, one 3rd rounder and two 4th rounders on OL

Two 1st rounders on WR’s

Two 2nd rounders on WR’s

A top 10 pick (1st round) on a RB/WR

2011-2018… 3 winning seasons 

From 2023 (the year we drafted Bryce) to this year…

Draft picks spent on offense: 10

Draft picks spent on defense: 10

 

From 2020 - 2022 

Picks spent on offense: 9 

Picks spent on defense: 14

special teams: 1

 

So last 6 drafts that’s 

19 picks on offense

24 picks on defense

1 pick on special teams  

 

lol tough look

 

Okay. If you want to start with 2023 and assign point value as used in trading draft picks, you really will see a tough look. 
 

I counted them up once not doing it again but a 9th, the next year’s 1st overall, the two seconds, DJ too, the 1st and 2nd in 2024 for offense, the 1st in 2025 for offense…. 
Add in the 2nd in 2022 for WR. 
For all those Bryce picks and what else we were left with, for 2023 and 2024, our big defensive score was Wallace in the 3rd in 2024.  
The value assigned to all those resources spent on offense would dwarf the defensive total. Multiples. 
Then go to FA and cap and the Burns return and freed cap, what happened to that? IOL mostly. Yeah we signed Clowney. Not too sure what else.  
It was so lopsided,  but I guess we weren’t supposed to notice that. 

Edited 3 hours ago by strato

[SmokinwithWilly]

11 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

Those goal posts seem to be mooooovin

This is what you said 

I proved that isn’t the case 

We’ve had 5 top 10 picks the last 6 drafts (christ that’s pathetic btw. We actually had earned a 6th but traded it)

1 QB

1 WR

1 LT

1 DL

1 CB

Truthfully even going back a bit our draft history is pretty even 

I didn't move the goal posts. But anyone who follows football who wants to engage in a rational discussion can't argue that 10 7th round picks are equal to 10 1st rounders in value. The argument has always been we haven't spent as much on defense has we have on offense. Draft picks have value just like salary.

We have not spent the same amount of draft pick salary cap on defense that we have on offense since drafting Bryce. It's not even close. Just the 2 1sts we used on Bryce, 2 overall 1sts have a value of 6000. That doesn’t even factor in DJ Moore or the 2 2nds. Bryce cost more than everything we've spent on defense in 6 damn years. 

[*FreeFua*]

18 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

I didn't move the goal posts. But anyone who follows football who wants to engage in a rational discussion can't argue that 10 7th round picks are equal to 10 1st rounders in value. The argument has always been we haven't spent as much on defense has we have on offense. Draft picks have value just like salary.

We have not spent the same amount of draft pick salary cap on defense that we have on offense since drafting Bryce. It's not even close. Just the 2 1sts we used on Bryce, 2 overall 1sts have a value of 6000. That doesn’t even factor in DJ Moore or the 2 2nds. Bryce cost more than everything we've spent on defense in 6 damn years. 

And once again I showed you it’s been pretty even. We spent 2nd and 3rd rounders this past draft on edge rushers. No one’s going to sit here and do the math on a draft value chart etc. the only reason I even entertained this was because you said we’ve spent nothing on defense when that simply isn’t true. It also didn’t help we traded our ONLY WR worth a damn to trade up for Bryce soo…

And this is kind of the issue with the anti Bryce crowd. This crowd tends to blame him for the trade up. I was team Stroud. Had the panthers not taken Young the only other QB they were going to take was Richardson. So your issue should be with Tepper, Morgan, Fitterer not Bryce. 

Bryce is who he is and it was pretty obvious who he was during the draft process. Bryce is slowly developing into that guy most thought he’d be. Give him a WR like Jamo and this offense as a whole would improve greatly. 

Anyone thinking he was the next Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen is clearly slow. Bryce was always going to need pieces around him much like EVERY other QB

Burrow has Chase and Higgins and they’ve done nothing. After losing in AFC Championship in 2022, Burrow is 17-15. QB’s need a team around them

It’s why a Jalen Hurts led Eagles team dismantled a Pat Mahomes led KC team in the SB

Imo the QB’s doing the most with the least up until this year have been Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson 

This year it’s Drake Maye and Josh Allen 

Outside of the 3-5 elite type QB’s I’m not really sure what people expect here. Is Bryce ever going to be in that elite category? Nope. Should we punt on Bryce and keep swinging? I don’t think so. Should we keep swinging while hanging onto Bryce? Yeah but I don’t know what that looks like

This team as a whole isn’t very good. Offense and defense and that’s the simple truth

 

Edited 2 hours ago by *FreeFua*

[CRA]

2 hours ago, *FreeFua* said:

And once again I showed you it’s been pretty even.

 

The draft capital since since 2023 has in no way been pretty even.  Especially when you zero in on day 1 and day 2 draft picks.  Draft capital has vastly gone toward the O over D.  

[strato]

1 hour ago, *FreeFua* said:

And once again I showed you it’s been pretty even. We spent 2nd and 3rd rounders this past draft on edge rushers. No one’s going to sit here and do the math on a draft value chart etc. the only reason I even entertained this was because you said we’ve spent nothing on defense when that simply isn’t true. It also didn’t help we traded our ONLY WR worth a damn to trade up for Bryce soo…

And this is kind of the issue with the anti Bryce crowd. This crowd tends to blame him for the trade up. I was team Stroud. Had the panthers not taken Young the only other QB they were going to take was Richardson. So your issue should be with Tepper, Morgan, Fitterer not Bryce. 

Bryce is who he is and it was pretty obvious who he was during the draft process. Bryce is slowly developing into that guy most thought he’d be. Give him a WR like Jamo and this offense as a whole would improve greatly. 

Anyone thinking he was the next Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen is clearly slow. Bryce was always going to need pieces around him much like EVERY other QB

Burrow has Chase and Higgins and they’ve done nothing. After losing in AFC Championship in 2022, Burrow is 17-15. QB’s need a team around them

It’s why a Jalen Hurts led Eagles team dismantled a Pat Mahomes led KC team in the SB

Imo the QB’s doing the most with the least up until this year have been Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson 

This year it’s Drake Maye and Josh Allen 

Outside of the 3-5 elite type QB’s I’m not really sure what people expect here. Is Bryce ever going to be in that elite category? Nope. Should we punt on Bryce and keep swinging? I don’t think so. Should we keep swinging while hanging onto Bryce? Yeah but I don’t know what that looks like

This team as a whole isn’t very good. Offense and defense and that’s the simple truth

 

To start with, you wouldn’t want to count up that value chart. You would see quickly where that is headed. But you basically did a quantity comparison, while ignoring quality. 
I am looking at 2023 as the start, because it became all about Bryce. 

2023 you have 4 picks plus DJ Moore for offense vs 2 (80 and 145) for defense. 
2024 you got the 1st overall, the 32, the 46 and the 101 for offense vs 72, 157, 200 and 240 for defense. Leave the FA IOL out of it. Which was a crazy big  investment. But it wasn’t draft. 

Anyway, that is basically 4 top 100 picks for offense and 4 picks for defense in 2024. Except they were 2 first rounders, the second rounder, and the 4th was really high at 101. Vs 72 and day three stuff. Please…. 


Second quoted/bolded… See you think we hate Bryce. That isn’t it at all. It is nice easy way to characterize us and discredit our talking points though.
 

Me, I do mostly hate watching him play. But I don’t hate the person. I hate the hell out of the stanning.  It started with the very first question I asked about his footwork, arm strength, and size. Height being the principle objection. I never even got to the durability factor. There was plenty without factoring that in. 
But there was rabid opposition to even asking the question of what a couple of small fractions of a second extra closing time would do for the defenders. 
What the extra time it takes to flip the hips would do vs a pass rush or on the other end after the ball is in the air. Split second more for recognition where it is going for the DBs. 
The tippy toe backpedal. 
That poo was a mess and it has always been mess but no Bryce fan wanted to hear it. “Go get another team to root for”. “It worked in the SEC it will be fine in the NFL you don’t know football you are just a hater”. 
It got worse when the real games started. It has never stopped. It is nice that many people have left that train so there is less abuse but it hasn’t stopped. 
So whatever…