OLine, Cam holding the ball too long, or bad play calling?

[rayzor]

cam's fault that the OL is piss poor and the playcalling takes place as if it was an all-pro OL.

 

 

[BuffaloBills62]

Am I the first here to say it is all of the above?

[Mr Mojo Risin]

Number doesn't even include the sacks cam has escaped from due to athleticism. Pey Manning is a damn statue.

Exactly. Peyton also was in a pass heavy system. Meaning he threw the ball more

[KillerKat]

Here is how we addressed the problem already:

 

Released Smitty and thanked the others for their services.  Lotta reasons to keep Smith, but there were more reasons to send him packing.  Age, mouth, legs, cap, and influence all factors.Let Lafell, Hixon, and Ginn get overpaid elsewhere.  How will we ever replace the 120 yards on 10 catches these WRs were bringing each week?

 

Signed a receiving TE

Signed an unselfish veteran, sure-handed possession WR

Signed another unselfish veteran, sure-handed possession WR

Signed a WR who flashed for the Bus who can stretch the field. 

Drafted a large target who does pretty much what a pass-catching TE can do and more.

Drafted a right guard (this does not sound like much, but it allows Chandler to focus on LT, and Williams, Bond to focus on RT).  Kugbila and Turner are the RGs).

Drafted a RB who is a good blocker and can pick up blitzes. 

 

Sounds to me like we are going to a shorter, less-vertical passing game.  More play-action slants and outs.  TE drags and seam routes.  Fewer gos, fewer deep out and deep digs. 

 

This is why PERHAPS that OT was not that big of a deal to Gettlemen.

Yet Shula loves his long developing and long bomb pass plays.

[stirs]

good read

 

 

http://www.sportsxchange.com/DS97/WALSH/walsh2qb.htm

[TheNewStandard]

This team's offenses have so many issues that it's hard to put 1 specific reason on Cams struggles.

I do know that Cam takes too much time in making throwing decisions. Way too long and it's been like that as long as I've been watching him play

[mc52beast]

Holding ball too long, horrible o-line, receivers not getting open, horrible play calling, horrible coaching and time management= 3-7-1

[MHS831]

What if part of the problem is Cam's fault?  A quick-reading QB can make an OL look a lot better than it is.  A qb that is consistent with timing and throws can make the WRs look better (See Lafell, Smith in 2014).   Just a possibility that many refuse to consider. 

 

The only thing I have said is that we have not surrounded him with top talent to see what he can do, so aside from flashes, we really do not know what we have in Cam Newton after 4 years--that is why we are still talking about him.  You better KNOW before you pay him $120m.

[WhoAmI?]

What if part of the problem is Cam's fault?  A quick-reading QB can make an OL look a lot better than it is.  A qb that is consistent with timing and throws can make the WRs look better (See Lafell, Smith in 2014).   Just a possibility that many refuse to consider. 

 

The only thing I have said is that we have not surrounded him with top talent to see what he can do, so aside from flashes, we really do not know what we have in Cam Newton after 4 years--that is why we are still talking about him.  You better KNOW before you pay him $120m.

 

Could not have said it better myself. Perfectly stated.

 

[Navy_football]

What if part of the problem is Cam's fault?  A quick-reading QB can make an OL look a lot better than it is.  A qb that is consistent with timing and throws can make the WRs look better (See Lafell, Smith in 2014).   Just a possibility that many refuse to consider. 

 

The only thing I have said is that we have not surrounded him with top talent to see what he can do, so aside from flashes, we really do not know what we have in Cam Newton after 4 years--that is why we are still talking about him.  You better KNOW before you pay him $120m.

 

MHS, I get what you're saying 100%.

 

But, this oline doesn't really give Cam a chance. The problem right now is the oline. They don't even compete at times. This has not been an NFL caliber offensive line.

 

I don't think the FO can allow a possibly elite QB to walk because his line doesn't give him enough time to see the defense after the snap. Another indication of how bad this line plays is the nonexistent running game. Sure, playcalling could help hide some of their problems. But if a player is getting beat (literally knocked on his butt) within the first 2 seconds after the snap, then no level of playcalling or quick thinking QB is gonna mask that.

 

Watch the first quarter of the Colts vs Jags last week, and tell me how did Luck do when his oline looked like what Cam deals with all game, every game.

 

[Happy Panther]

OLine, Cam holding the ball too long, or bad play calling?  

 

Yes

[CatMan72]

O-line and bad play calling followed by a slow WR corp that struggles to get open which causes Cam to hold the ball too long.

[MHS831]

MHS, I get what you're saying 100%.

 

But, this oline doesn't really give Cam a chance. The problem right now is the oline. They don't even compete at times. This has not been an NFL caliber offensive line.

 

I don't think the FO can allow a possibly elite QB to walk because his line doesn't give him enough time to see the defense after the snap. Another indication of how bad this line plays is the nonexistent running game. Sure, playcalling could help hide some of their problems. But if a player is getting beat (literally knocked on his butt) within the first 2 seconds after the snap, then no level of playcalling or quick thinking QB is gonna mask that.

 

Watch the first quarter of the Colts vs Jags last week, and tell me how did Luck do when his oline looked like what Cam deals with all game, every game.

 

 

That is my point--do we know how good Cam is?  He has never had much to throw to, never had a RT, etc.   However, are some of their problems based on his shortcomings?  What about the mechanics (feet mainly) that are still an issue? 

 

Last year in Denver, Manning lost his LT for the year, he lost 2 other starting linemen.  He lost his backup center and played most of the season with a journeyman free agent at C.  He had a decent cast of WRs, made better because he was their QB.  Nonetheless, his defense was not stellar, and he was asked to win shoot outs.  He did.  How did he do that?  He gets rid of the ball in 2.7 seconds.  He audibles correctly. He leads through adversity.  He does not make unforced errors.  None of these descriptors can honestly be attributed to Cam.  Cam is a better athlete with a stronger arm.  Last year, Cam had a better defense and probably a better offensive line.  Manning went to the Super Bowl.  Cam is in his prime and Manning is 38.  Why is Manning better? 

 

Can the front office give a QB elite money when it is only a possibility that he becomes elite?  Last season, Cam struggled in a LOT of games, only to put it together down the stretch and win at the buzzer. He makes a lot of unforced errors, from holding the ball too long to ill-advised passes to balls soaring over open WRs' heads.  When do elite QBs do that?   We had the second-rated defense in the league.  If we counted on Cam for all 4 quarters last year, when the OL featured Gross, Wharton, and Kalil, would we even be considering him now?

 

What bothers me the most about Cam?  He wants elite money and has never been elite--he has had elite moments.  Statistically, yes, you can find stats that support his elite status.  However, do those numbers relate to consistency and winning?  Does it bother anyone other than me that he is having a terrible year and publicly demanding "elite" money?  That is the Hurney way, a belief that you can pay a player to greatness.

 

Believe me, I wish signing Cam was a slam dunk, but I am not sure that he will be elite.  If he wants $21+million, then he better get used to playing behind role players.  He better learn to make them better.

 

Your points are understandable, and I want so desperately to believe that we can build around Cam with confidence.  I am not bashing Cam--he is the qb on my favorite team.  I didn't bash Clausen for the same reason.  I am questioning the logic of possibly making him richer without making the team better.

 

 

 

[MHS831]

O-line and bad play calling followed by a slow WR corp that struggles to get open which causes Cam to hold the ball too long.

 

You are probably right and I hope so.  However, what speed WRs have ever been great?  Aside from Calvin Johnson,  most speed WRs are busts (interesting if you think about it). 

 

I heard a guy on the radio talking about the WRs not getting open.  He said this (summarizing):

 

1. Their coach was better at WR when he had lost a step and was probably slower than any WR on the roster.  Can he teach them how to get open?  One would think so.

2.  During a route, most WRs are open for a second-a few steps after the cut.  If the ball is not there at that time, a slower WR is covered.  They must use body positioning, hands, and intelligence to get open.

3.  A WR may be covered, but few coverages can defend a perfect pass.  Reason?  Ball location, timing, and awareness.  The defender is always reactionary, the WR usually knows where the ball will be.  That is how QBs "throw the WR open."

 

So, in conclusion, he said that while they may appear to be covered when the QB is ready to throw the ball, that is not when they have to catch the ball.  The QB must anticipate the opportunity for the WR to gain an advantage and put the ball where that can happen.

 

Cam makes more unforced errors than elite qbs.  He overthrows, for example, open WRs.  he did that all last year.   Without a defense, considering how many games they kept us in when the offense was sputtering, we would have had another losing season.  Heck, if you look at the Atlanta (away), SF, New England, Miami, etc games, the defense won them--or some freakish occurrence like a dropped pass or a bad snap.