Are we officially free of all of Huney's contracts?

[RoaringRiot]

18 minutes ago, AceBoogie said:

Again nobody is worshiping Hurney, you guys are so simple minded sometimes it's like you think you have to like one or the other. Gettleman has been successful largely because of what he inherited in Cam, Luke, and others. Does that mean I'd rather have hurney? No

You can't sit here and say Cam and Luke are the reasons behind GMan's success and then also say RR has evolved into a great coach. You do see the problem with that, right? 

[RoaringRiot]

25 minutes ago, AceBoogie said:

I don't hate him. I know it comes across that way, but I don't. I think he's full of himself, I don't think he's as good as most here believe. I think he's made some awful mistakes like releasing Steve Smith(who proved he could still play and help a team win) releasing Josh Norman(who was a home grown product) and I think just like the Steve Smith decision, the Josh Norman mistake will be masked by the greatness of Cam and Luke neither of which he drafted. 

The short answer is I believe he gets too much credit and Marty too much blame. I called my wife happy the day he got fired because he deserved to be fired. I see him on one side of the extreme and Dave on the other side of that extreme with the ideal GM somewhere in the middle. 

I applaud some of the moves he's made but he's been afforded the benefit of having such a strong foundation to build on. People here act like he does no wrong and when he makes a decision that people don't agree with its "trust Gettleman" when it's really trust Cam and Luke will cover his ass on the field. 

So you don't hate him but you take every opportunity to rip him but it's because you hate all of the people who support him and think he's doing a good job? That clears it up a little. 

PS - Cam is also full of himself. 

[Floppin]

You can't fault Gman for allowing his best players to carry certain deficiencies in the team, in fact you could almost use it as praise for recognizing the areas of strength that could do so.

This team was in a horrible position moving forward after Hurney - stupid bad contracts and probably the worst overall depth in the league. It takes a long time to fix such a mess, and some hard decisions had to be made. Gman trusted in Cam's ability to get the job done without Smith and, as much as I loved him, it was time to move on from him so that Cam could fully make the team his. This is similar in how he's trusting his defensive leadership to mentor and help a young secondary.

If you can't see the fact that since Gman has been here that our team has consistently worked into a better overall position both cap wise and total talent, then you're nothing more than a hater.

[AceBoogie]

56 minutes ago, RoaringRiot said:

You can't sit here and say Cam and Luke are the reasons behind GMan's success and then also say RR has evolved into a great coach. You do see the problem with that, right? 

I believe in another thread that I divided up the credit between Cam's, Luke's, and Ron's evolution. Gettleman deserves some credit, we just disagree on how much. 

[AceBoogie]

53 minutes ago, RoaringRiot said:

So you don't hate him but you take every opportunity to rip him but it's because you hate all of the people who support him and think he's doing a good job? That clears it up a little. 

PS - Cam is also full of himself. 

I hate the mountain of unbalanced praise he gets for the team's success. Like I said I disagree with how much credit he gets. Not that I hate him, just believe he's the most overhyped thing on this board. He could kill a baby and people here would say the baby deserved it. That's what I hate

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

see i think some notion of ron "transforming" is overstated.  it's not like his core philosophy is all that different than it was when he got here.

the biggest change in him imo is that he figured out how to manage the flow of the game better and started taking more calculated risks.  i still think he makes questionable depth chart decisions and i'm quite wary of shula who falls directly under ron's purview.  it's not like he was rich kotite and transformed into bill belichick or something.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

also remmers is everyone's favorite whipping boy for the fact that there isn't a lombardi at 800 south mint right now and rightly so, but it seems like whichever broncos player it was that said we just lined up and did exactly what they had seen a hundred times on film is something that gets glossed over.  and that's 100% on the coaching staff.

[AU-panther]

1 hour ago, AceBoogie said:

And Thomas Davis and Kalil and Charles Johnson, and Stewart and brought in Tolbert and traded for Greg Olsen<--- which is still the most impressive move this team has ever made. 

So yea he was only responsible for 80% of the pro bowlers on the team last year. But bow down to the mighty Dave. 

There is no doubt that DG inherited some good players.  If I'm not mistaken he has even alluded to the fact that starting out with Cam as your quarterback makes his job easier.

With that being said this isn't Madden.  You just can't look at player's names.  You have to factor in the contracts.  How many GMs in the league would have wanted a 20m cap hit for CJ last year.

DG walked in to a mess as far as the cap went.  For the first 3 years he had to fill the team with less then a full cap because the earlier GM got to build a team with more then the cap.  I'm not faulting Hurney for that, for all we know the owner said "win now" and I would have done the same, but the fact is he not only overspent but he also back loaded all of those huge contracts.  How good would have the 2013 team been with an extra $20m in cap space or the 2015 team with an extra $15m?

We might never know the true story of any "locker room drama" with Steve Smith but from a financial standpoint you could in some ways blame his departure on Hurney as well as DG.  If we had more cap space or his cap hit would have be less would the chance of us keeping him have increased?  I would think so. 

The fact is DG inherited a team that was over the cap and there are only 2 ways to fix that.  Restructure a player by  converting salary into a bonus which lets you push the cap hit into the future.  An example of this would be CJ and this is the reason his number was so crazy last year.  Or you can cut a player.  Unfortunately he was limited on who he could cut when he first took over the job.  A lot of the big contracts he inherited were still "upside down" as far as dead money goes.

With all that being said I'm not saying DG is perfect.  I'm not a big fan of all of the trading up we do.  I think long term it can catch up to you.  Fortunately for him he seems to hit on a high percentage of those picks.  At the end of the day I believe if you get 3 starters out of  a draft you have done well.  If you take 7 picks and trade up to 5 picks and get 3 starters that is the same as taking 7 picks and trading down to 9 picks and finding 3 starters.  History seems to favor the 9 lower picks over the 5 higher picks.

Also I believe there are two aspects to being a successful drafter.  One is talent evaluation and one is predicted what other teams are going to do.  At times it seems like we might reach.  That kind of goes hand in hand with the trading up philosophy though.  With him having a scouting background that really doesn't surprise me though.  They seem to fall in love with the players they like and go after them.  As long as you continue to evaluate well this  doesn't really matter though.  I'm just afraid long term it might catch up to us.

While I understand when Steve Smith was released I would have to say it probably could have been handled a little better from a PR perspective.  Also the Norman situation is a little surprising.   I totally understand us not signing him long term.  I really didn't expect us to sign him long term to the kind of money he wanted, but I did think we would keep him for one year under the tag though.  Here again we might never know the real story on that.

Overall though I think he has done a really good job with what he has inherited and I think his overall philosophy will contribute to long term sustained success which is something this franchise has never had.

 

 

 

 

[AceBoogie]

21 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

There is no doubt that DG inherited some good players.  If I'm not mistaken he has even alluded to the fact that starting out with Cam as your quarterback makes his job easier.

With that being said this isn't Madden.  You just can't look at player's names.  You have to factor in the contracts.  How many GMs in the league would have wanted a 20m cap hit for CJ last year.

DG walked in to a mess as far as the cap went.  For the first 3 years he had to fill the team with less then a full cap because the earlier GM got to build a team with more then the cap.  I'm not faulting Hurney for that, for all we know the owner said "win now" and I would have done the same, but the fact is he not only overspent but he also back loaded all of those huge contracts.  How good would have the 2013 team been with an extra $20m in cap space or the 2015 team with an extra $15m?

We might never know the true story of any "locker room drama" with Steve Smith but from a financial standpoint you could in some ways blame his departure on Hurney as well as DG.  If we had more cap space or his cap hit would have be less would the chance of us keeping him have increased?  I would think so. 

The fact is DG inherited a team that was over the cap and there are only 2 ways to fix that.  Restructure a player by  converting salary into a bonus which lets you push the cap hit into the future.  An example of this would be CJ and this is the reason his number was so crazy last year.  Or you can cut a player.  Unfortunately he was limited on who he could cut when he first took over the job.  A lot of the big contracts he inherited were still "upside down" as far as dead money goes.

With all that being said I'm not saying DG is perfect.  I'm not a big fan of all of the trading up we do.  I think long term it can catch up to you.  Fortunately for him he seems to hit on a high percentage of those picks.  At the end of the day I believe if you get 3 starters out of  a draft you have done well.  If you take 7 picks and trade up to 5 picks and get 3 starters that is the same as taking 7 picks and trading down to 9 picks and finding 3 starters.  History seems to favor the 9 lower picks over the 5 higher picks.

Also I believe there are two aspects to being a successful drafter.  One is talent evaluation and one is predicted what other teams are going to do.  At times it seems like we might reach.  That kind of goes hand in hand with the trading up philosophy though.  With him having a scouting background that really doesn't surprise me though.  They seem to fall in love with the players they like and go after them.  As long as you continue to evaluate well this  doesn't really matter though.  I'm just afraid long term it might catch up to us.

While I understand when Steve Smith was released I would have to say it probably could have been handled a little better from a PR perspective.  Also the Norman situation is a little surprising.   I totally understand us not signing him long term.  I really didn't expect us to sign him long term to the kind of money he wanted, but I did think we would keep him for one year under the tag though.  Here again we might never know the real story on that.

Overall though I think he has done a really good job with what he has inherited and I think his overall philosophy will contribute to long term sustained success which is something this franchise has never had.

 

 

 

 

This is fair

[KillerKat]

35 minutes ago, Promethean Forerunner said:

So you're still whining about Smitty? He's gone, man. Get over it. It had nothing to do with his ability. You know that. Stop pretending it was the reason he got cut. He got cut because he was preventing other leaders from growing and thus molding the locker room. Smitty wasn't a cancer but he sure as hell wasn't the cure. This is Cam's and Luke's team now. There were rumors flying around that Smitty wasn't allowing Cam to take control of the locker room. So, as a Cam fan, you mean to tell me you would choose an aging WR who tends to be hostile if he doesn't get his way over a young franchise QB?

Don't even start on Norman's bitch ass. Josh cost himself a contract with us because he didn't fall in line enough, and was a greedy and self absorbed diva. Go ahead. Tell me I'm lying. Redskin fans are already getting sick of him and his antics... and the season has yet to start. That indicates to me that Gettleman knew what he was doing. Josh should have signed the tender if he was soooooo worried about staying. Good riddance.

Isn't it funny after Smith leaves we have one of the best tight-knit group of WRs in franchise history? It's not a coincidence that we struggled past WR1 Smith's entire career and then "boom!" that happens.

[panthers1234]

2 hours ago, AceBoogie said:

I don't hate him. I know it comes across that way, but I don't. I think he's full of himself, I don't think he's as good as most here believe. I think he's made some awful mistakes like releasing Steve Smith(who proved he could still play and help a team win) releasing Josh Norman(who was a home grown product) and I think just like the Steve Smith decision, the Josh Norman mistake will be masked by the greatness of Cam and Luke neither of which he drafted. 

The short answer is I believe he gets too much credit and Marty too much blame. I called my wife happy the day he got fired because he deserved to be fired. I see him on one side of the extreme and Dave on the other side of that extreme with the ideal GM somewhere in the middle. 

I applaud some of the moves he's made but he's been afforded the benefit of having such a strong foundation to build on. People here act like he does no wrong and when he makes a decision that people don't agree with its "trust Gettleman" when it's really trust Cam and Luke will cover his ass on the field. 

I disagree where you say Dave is one extreme and Marty is the other. Id say Dave is a better version of Marty in just about every way.

The biggest difference is the way they manage the salary cap. Marty put us in cap hell with a sucky team to boot. Marty simply does not know how to manage money well and can not stay objective when handing out contracts. Most of the big contracts he handed out we later regretted. 

Dave plans for the future and Marty more so played it more year to year which is why you saw so much inconsistency. Dave's long term plan will have the panthers in the playoffs pretty much every year. Your mad that we didn't resign Josh Norman at 15 mil but you have a limited amount of money to use and you just paid Cam and Luke top dollar contracts. You also have free agents coming up such as: KK Star KB Kalil Oher. You can't pay them all. Do you know what Marty would have done? He would have paid Josh 15mil for 4 or 5 years. Then all of a sudden your like fug I got no money to sign guys like KK Star KB Kalil Oher. By signing Josh you essentially kick 2 of the 5 players off your team. You need foresight and planning to be successful my man and Marty lacked that. Your right on with your other thoughts tho

 

[MHS831]

People who pick one part of the GM job to support a GM don't get it.  Contracts given were laughed at around the league.  Yes, he had a few good picks.  I assure you, if you gave me a scouting department, statistics, interviews, personal workouts, test results---I could have found some gems too. 

Remember--he tried to trade up to take Clausen.  It was the same draft he traded up for Armani Edwards.   But that was all made better by taking misfit (for our system) Eric Norwood--

That was the only draft he had without Fox's input. 

Brandon Lafell was average. Hardy--the only good player found in the fifth round--because he is a psycho-- had his baggage, and it eventually hurt the team.   THAT was Hurney on his own---after taking daddy's credit card with a $70 m cap room and resigning all the key players off  2-14 and 6-10 squads.  He not only sucked in the draft, he made sure that we would never have a chance to be good by paying players tomorrow for today's work.

The Charles Johnson contract is a good measure of his idiocy.  Atlanta was the only other suitor and they were cap strapped.  In that market, CJ was in the $50m range.  Hurney, paranoid that CJ would want to go to Atlanta because that was his home area (played at Ga) and he might want to win, overpaid him because he did not believe that Carolina had anything to offer free agents.  THAT is why he did not pursue any big names outside of the Pather locker room---He did not believe in what the Panthers were doing.  He had a complex and went with safe bets.

Oh yeah, Hurney fans, the Jake Delhomme contract after Tommy John surgery is another example of extreme stupid.  I said it then, iif you are wondering.

[Smithers]

3 hours ago, CRA said:

Not really Hurney was a bad GM but not because of how he drafted 

Are you kidding???  The man couldn't hit on a draft pick after the 1st round most of his career.  

[cptx]

Hurney drafted well in the first when he wasn't trading away picks for no reason. His problem was when it came time to pay the guys he drafted. He would have threw 400 million at cam and they wouldn't have been able to sign anyone else, ever.