How good have coaches been developing players

[The_Rainmaker]

Pretty darn good but nah we should fire all the coaches

2013:
Star - multi-season starter ( was viewed as run stuffer but Watson developed him into decent pass rusher)
Short - multi-season starter, 2nd team All pro (Watson helped develop him into a better run blocker)
Kugbila - injuries, no games played, waived
Klein - high quality depth, has started several games, would probably start on most teams (Improved  pass coverage)
Barner - very few snaps, traded after one year

2014:
Benjamin - multi-season starter ( Phroel improved his route running abilities & drop issues)
Ealy - starter ( Expanded his pass rushing moves)
Turner - multi-season starter, pro bowl (Matsko & Brown turned a road grader into balanced guard who can pass protect at elite level as well)
Boston - starter 
Benwikere - multi-season starter, cut
Gaffney - injured, waived

2015:
Thompson - starter   (Etc..)
Funchess - starter   (Route Running )
Williams - starter  (Road Grader improving in his pass protection) 
Mayo - quality depth (Etc..)
CAP - quality depth (Etc..)

[PhillyB]

i actually have no idea how to really effectively grade position coaches. there are countless variables at play to the point that individual player growth or group success can't be attributed automatically to that coach.

is kelvin benjamin a product of ricky proehl? or is he progressing naturally? could a different coach get him to perform even better? is KB's error-prone play a reflection of poor position coaching?

lots of people know more than me about the coaches, but people who know exactly as much as me or less than me are way too quick to measure a positional coach's success by the player outcome, which is an absolutely ridiculous method of analysis.

[The_Rainmaker]

6 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

i actually have no idea how to really effectively grade position coaches. there are countless variables at play to the point that individual player growth or group success can't be attributed automatically to that coach.

is kelvin benjamin a product of ricky proehl? or is he progressing naturally? could a different coach get him to perform even better? is KB's error-prone play a reflection of poor position coaching?

lots of people know more than me about the coaches, but people who know exactly as much as me or less than me are way too quick to measure a positional coach's success by the player outcome, which is an absolutely ridiculous method of analysis.

Is it more of symbiotic realtionship, which you can say for the overall organzation???

Other point to the post  was creating  certain narrative kind of like a Laywer in a case.

[PhillyB]

7 minutes ago, The_Rainmaker said:

Is it more of symbiotic realtionship, which you can say for the overall organzation???

absolutely, but it's damn difficult to dissect this particular symbiosis 

[The_Rainmaker]

9 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

absolutely, but it's damn difficult to dissect this particular symbiosis 

Then what is the need of position coaches we could just role with HC, OC,DC, & STC, but if its a system then they are part of the piece and required for it to work.

[My Goodness My Guinness]

Weren't you just recently calling for a fire sale for the whole FO/coaching staff?

[Mr. Scot]

41 minutes ago, The_Rainmaker said:

Then what is the need of position coaches we could just role with HC, OC,DC, & STC, but if its a system then they are part of the piece and required for it to work.

Position coaching is not the same as gameday coaching.

[chknwing]

The Carolina Panthers have made 19 transactions at the cornerback position since removing the franchise tag from Josh Norman over the offseason.

[iamhubby1]

1 hour ago, PhillyB said:

i actually have no idea how to really effectively grade position coaches. there are countless variables at play to the point that individual player growth or group success can't be attributed automatically to that coach.

is kelvin benjamin a product of ricky proehl? or is he progressing naturally? could a different coach get him to perform even better? is KB's error-prone play a reflection of poor position coaching?

lots of people know more than me about the coaches, but people who know exactly as much as me or less than me are way too quick to measure a positional coach's success by the player outcome, which is an absolutely ridiculous method of analysis.

 

In most cases, the players spend more time with each other, than they do with their coaches. The new CBA limits the amount of practice, and study time the coaches get with the players. So outside of positional meetings, and practice time, the players are spending more time with their team mates than coaches.

 

That is why folks are always saying you need that vet presence in a young group. Someone the kids can go to to get some extra help. Someone to help them learn to study, and watch film. Someone to show them the ropes. That is what that vet presence does.

 

I mean, the position coach can explain the concepts to the kids, but sometimes a vet can get them to actually understand it. Now not all kids need vet help. Some come in with the work ethic, and study skills needed to succeed in the NFL. But yeah. Most kids need that vet presence to guide them through their infancy.

[CRA]

2 hours ago, The_Rainmaker said:

Pretty darn good but nah we should fire all the coaches

2013:
Star - multi-season starter ( was viewed as run stuffer but Watson developed him into decent pass rusher)
Short - multi-season starter, 2nd team All pro (Watson helped develop him into a better run blocker)
Kugbila - injuries, no games played, waived
Klein - high quality depth, has started several games, would probably start on most teams (Improved  pass coverage)
Barner - very few snaps, traded after one year

2014:
Benjamin - multi-season starter ( Phroel improved his route running abilities & drop issues)
Ealy - starter ( Expanded his pass rushing moves)
Turner - multi-season starter, pro bowl (Matsko & Brown turned a road grader into balanced guard who can pass protect at elite level as well)
Boston - starter 
Benwikere - multi-season starter, cut
Gaffney - injured, waived

2015:
Thompson - starter   (Etc..)
Funchess - starter   (Route Running )
Williams - starter  (Road Grader improving in his pass protection) 
Mayo - quality depth (Etc..)
CAP - quality depth (Etc..)

well, Star was believed to be the #1 overall pick in his draft prior to his heart issue.  So did they develop him or was he just the best DT in the draft.   KK was also one of the, if not the, best pass rushing DTs in his draft.  Both basically have been what they drafted as.

I would apply the same for a lot of the guys mentioned. We got what we drafted.

They developed Norman.  That is Ron's one true example of taking raw talent and making it work.  On the offensive side I would give them Cam.  Despite being drafted #1 overall he wasn't viewed as a safe pick and was raw.  He is still a raw player but they have worked with him and their O to enable him to be the NFL MVP.  Took work.

[mc52beast]

There are some instances where players who basically did very little while a Panther flourished on other teams;

Gary Barnidge- used primarily as a blocker in Charlotte, is a legit threat in Cleveland.

Donald Lafell- didn't really do much while here except drop passes, did pretty well in NE.

Deangelo Williams- did well for us but was forced to split carries with Stew, replaced Bell in Pittsburgh and lit it up.

[The_Rainmaker]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Position coaching is not the same as gameday coaching.

Successfully executing during gameday depends  a lot on practice days during the week :)

[The_Rainmaker]

1 hour ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

In most cases, the players spend more time with each other, than they do with their coaches. The new CBA limits the amount of practice, and study time the coaches get with the players. So outside of positional meetings, and practice time, the players are spending more time with their team mates than coaches.

 

That is why folks are always saying you need that vet presence in a young group. Someone the kids can go to to get some extra help. Someone to help them learn to study, and watch film. Someone to show them the ropes. That is what that vet presence does.

 

I mean, the position coach can explain the concepts to the kids, but sometimes a vet can get them to actually understand it. Now not all kids need vet help. Some come in with the work ethic, and study skills needed to succeed in the NFL. But yeah. Most kids need that vet presence to guide them through their infancy.

The vet was once a rookie who was taught by the coaches also.  

There is always  Master & Apprentice  apsect in just about everything in life.  

[iamhubby1]

3 hours ago, CRA said:

well, Star was believed to be the #1 overall pick in his draft prior to his heart issue.  So did they develop him or was he just the best DT in the draft.   KK was also one of the, if not the, best pass rushing DTs in his draft.  Both basically have been what they drafted as.

I would apply the same for a lot of the guys mentioned. We got what we drafted.

They developed Norman.  That is Ron's one true example of taking raw talent and making it work.  On the offensive side I would give them Cam.  Despite being drafted #1 overall he wasn't viewed as a safe pick and was raw.  He is still a raw player but they have worked with him and their O to enable him to be the NFL MVP.  Took work.

 

With colleges being limited with the amount of time they can spend with their kids. You are truly lucky if you draft a kid that does not need work on something. From fundamentals, to studying, film work, and techniques. College coaches just don't have time to teach the kids all that needs to be done before they get to the next level.

 

So NFL coaches have to find a way to get this extra stuff worked on in between everything else they do. Developing kids nowadays is much tougher than it was 10 years ago. They used to say it takes 2-3 years for kids to get NFL wise. Nowadays you are lucky if they get it quicker.

 

The vast majority of kids coming out of college are not NFL ready where it comes to fundamentals and technique.

 

So I don't think most players are who they were drafted as.