The Unbearable Fatness of Benjamin: a Retrospective

[Saca312]

Agree with this completely.

[electro's horse]

3 minutes ago, Growl said:

There's no mandate that they must be on the field at the same time. If there is, its because there's a talent disparity between them and the next options.

you're absolutely correct, but why have two of them?

Again, they clearly didn't feel what KB had over Devin was worth the roster spot. And I don't disagree.

[Growl]

3 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

you're absolutely correct, but why have two of them?

Again, they clearly didn't feel what KB had over Devin was worth the roster spot. And I don't disagree.

I do.

[pantherphan96]

From all reports it seemed like KB was about to take the next step and be a force in 2015 before the injury. There were work ethic questions about his time at FSU and having to rehab from a major injury definitely didn't help.

Funchess essentially was drafted to fit the same archetype of WR for Cam which made sense originally as Funch and KB would body smaller CBs and be able to high point some of Cam's overthrows. Ultimately, with the lack of speed or route-running ability to create separation they filled up the same role fairly inefficiently. 

Only difference is KB has flashes of the WR we all hoped he would become. I don't really care about losing KB long-term because we'd have to overpay to keep him but I also have no confidence in Hurney's ability to draft a player in the 3rd round that will be on this team in 3 years.

[pantherphan96]

34 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

you're absolutely correct, but why have two of them?

Again, they clearly didn't feel what KB had over Devin was worth the roster spot. And I don't disagree.

My biggest issue is this seems like Hurney's way of forcing more speed into the offense which means he doesn't have the balls to tell Rivera/Shula to get more speed on the field

[PhillyB]

well i feel marginally better

but still a competent OC/GM find a way to answer with schematic adjustments imo. this doesn't make the team better 

[GusLevy]

Preface statement: I don't have a favorite NFL team...I bet all teams and games on a game-by-game basis...I have lurked this board for a few yrs to gather info if available. 

In general, I agree with the OP comments on Benjamin. Benjamin was the classic late first-round bet based on potential rather than performance - we all saw the NCAA Championship game and could envision KB stretching out to make catches in the NFL against outsized DBs. The subsequent reality was that KB was lacking in professional maturity and motivation, was lacking focus on each play as the #1 receiver in the NFL, and never provided the production that warrants being a #1 receiver who is in his 4th yr in the NFL.

The fact that the Panthers offense is not clicking while still being in the thick of the chase for the postseason made this trade an obvious one from my perspective. It was a good trade for both teams. Buffalo gets a large target at a position of need for a team that is trying to make noise with a desperate fanbase - Buffalo has not made the playoffs since 1999!!! Contrary to the kneejerk analysts thus far, my own opinion is that the Bills were forced to overpay for KB with this trade in order to break the playoff drought this year.

As for Carolina, the trade benefits on both the Business side and the football side. The business side is easy, KB will enter his Option year in 2018. His trade value would drop off significantly as a result while concomitantly his Cap hit to the Panthers increases significantly. 

As for the football side, the numbers don't lie. As a #1 receiver for a moribund offense, his production was only slightly better than Funchess who is of similar size and measurements. By trading KB before this trading deadline, Carolina gets premium compensation for KB, improves their Cap situation next year, and arguably does not worsen the offense by trading away a player that is literally replaceable with another current player. KB was the 28th pick 5 yrs ago who didn't produce the way a borderline 1st/2nd round receiver should have by Year 4/5...to receive a 3rd and 7th round pick is great value.

Some intangibles that make this trade sensible to me are: 

1) Cam has been put on notice by having a security blanket taken away - I actually would be optimistic that he refocuses. 

2) The offense will run more efficiently. KB and Funchess are interchangeable. This trade is addition by subtraction as it will allow more options and scenarios to become available. If Funchess could have the same trade value as KB today, it would have made similar sense to trade him away today instead of KB...but KB was the one that had trade value.

3) I view Rivera positively. He had been dealt one wacky card after another by the previous GM. Since the team is in the middle of a playoff hunt, I think the KB trade restores authority in the locker room and will hone the team to the goal at hand. With reminders of Olsen's imminent return, the offensive players will hopefully be re-energized.

[ras977]

2 hours ago, electro's horse said:

I never liked the Kelvin Benjamin draft pick. He never really seemed like a fit, for the team or for his position. He was a weird combination of size and length. He never played the true 1 position at FSU, and didn't really put up great offensive numbers. He was drafted on intangibles. I will never forget Gettleman stating emphatically "Everyone knew he was getting that ball in the National Championship Game."

But Gettleman had a vision for this team moving forward. It was a vision where the WR were huge, physical monstrosities that could shut down corners and linebackers in the running game. It was a vision that didn't include Steve Smith, obviously. It was a vision he'd continue to build with the Funchess pick. And it was a vision that would ultimately and ironically come to fruition with Kelvin missing the season.

His rookie year didn't really change my opinion of him. He labored to an inefficient thousand yard season in a flawed offense, but never really looked the part. He had a couple of impressive plays. I'll never forget his big catch against Richard Sherman, where it appeared he reached four feet into the air at full stride to pull in a pass. I could see his arms from the stands. But too often he struggled with the routine plays. Being a wide receiver is not about highlight reel catches. The mundane is more important than the extraordinary, and so often Kelvin failed to do that.

By the end of that year, even though he'd reached that now unimpressive 1k yard receiving plateu (22 other players did it) it was hard to say he looked as good as most of the other members of his receiving class. 

By all accounts he looked like he'd taken the next step during training camp in 2015. Fate can be cruel, and he tore his ACL. That was effectively the end of Kelvin in Carolina, looking back. 

Rehabbing from injuries is a matter of willpower and determination. If any of you have ever had a ligament injury, you know that it was all a matter of how much stretching, how much mobility, how often you wanted to go into PT. For most of us it's not an issue; for professional athletes, they have to attack that as hard as anything else in their life. Kelvin didn't do it, and it showed. In 2016, he looked hesitant and slower than his rookie year. More importantly, he had gained weight, and there is your second of two bigg problems you cannot have in a WR.

The first thing a WR either has or doesn't have are hands. There are examples of guys who were great catchers in college basically getting the yips in the pros (Jordan Matthews, looking at you) but there are very few counter examples. You can either catch or you can't. Oftentimes it's mental. Kelvin could pull anything out of the sky, but a simple hook route was a roll of the dice. 

The second thing you cannot coach is being able to stay in shape. Obviously teams are more understanding for their bigger dudes, but for the skill position this should not be an issue. Teams simply aren't equipped to deal with a WR or DB who gets fat. Most athletes at these positions don't have this issue. Kelvin had the weird combination of the ability to play WR in the NFL and the inability to keep weight off. Getting hurt and gaining weight leads to not attacking rehab quickly, not being able to get back into the flow of the NFL, and a wasted season.

And going into 2017 he was overweight again, and looked horrible in OTAs.

Kelvin will always be a big what if. What if he hadn't missed 2015 and the offense purred along and he saw what hard work and determination could do? In a lot of ways it was like Kris Jenkins, who descended into alcoholism following back to back ACL tears and never really recovered until he left the Carolinas. 

But I just don't think in the final analysis Kelvin cares that much about football. It's not enough to be good enough to play the game. Everyone on the field is good enough, physically. He can't just be bigger because everyone is the same size. His game had serious limitations due to his lack of speed, and he had to be even better. He had to learn to be a technician, and catch anything near him. He clearly never did; lazy routes were a hallmark of his time in Carolina. And the hands thing, well, there you go.

I will always remember Kelvin during one of the final plays of the year last year against Tampa Bay. Cam Newton was playing hurt in a meaningless game, and they were driving inside one minute left to score the go ahead touchdown. Panthers had two timeouts, and Cam found Kelvin across the middle for a huge gain. The Panthers ran up to the line to get another play off, but noticed Kelvin had taken himself off the field to get a sip of gatorade. They were forced to burn a timeout, and that threw off the rest of the series, ultimately leading to a turfed pass to Olsen as the game ended. 

That was classic Kelvin. A flash of brilliance, then a flash of apathy. 

What happens to the Panthers from here? I think it's a pretty good indication where the offense is going to go for the second half of the season. No real reason to have Devin and Benjamin out there at the same time. You give those safeties absolutely no reason to fear the team going deep. I think we can all see the writing on the wall with CMC as a RB. Say hello to a top three WR corp of Funchess, Samuel, and CMC. Woof. 

Overall though, I'm not sure this will impact the team either way. Panthers problems are more schematic than personnel. The hope is likely that faster receivers will pull away those safeties, and maybe even get a team out of their base sets. But we'll se. 

As for Benjamin? He's not going to a great place. I think this tweet sums it up.

A player who can't get separation is going to a QB that doesn't throw into tight coverage. RIP. 

 

Great post !

[Jase]

Let us never forget this thread. 

 

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/boards/topic/100507-kelvin-benjamins-weight/

[Paa Langfart]

1 hour ago, GusLevy said:

3) I view Rivera positively. He had been dealt one wacky card after another by the previous GM

  Ok I am lost here - please tell me more how getting rid of a GM 3 weeks before the season starts solidifies the team and makes Riveras job easier.  Also please give me more reason to like Ro what with his never ending  mistakes during games in game management, picking poor coaches, and in making poor decisions on which players to keep/play/ or get rid of.

[Montsta]

2 hours ago, electro's horse said:

That's a different thread, but mainly

1. defenses adjusting

2. defenders knowing they could killshot cam with impunity

3. injuries to cam and offensive line

Let me know when we can get drunk and lift.

In whatever order suits you. 

[TylerDurden]

I agree with all of what you say here, Fiz.  That being said, i still think it's a bad move.  Idk what was worse, as someone who was never a fan of the KB pick either - Drafting him in the first place?  Or, even with all of his apathy, mental lapses, and lack of refined skills as a reciever, trading him away when he was our best option for no immediate value in return.

Who knows though...  maybe this forces the offense to change.  I've complained since Smitty was unceremoniously dismissed, the biggest problem with our offense was receivers inability to separate, and KB was the poster child of that.  He was another object of Gettleman's fetishized affection.

[ncmonzta]

1 hour ago, GusLevy said:

Preface statement: I don't have a favorite NFL team...I bet all teams and games on a game-by-game basis...I have lurked this board for a few yrs to gather info if available. 

In general, I agree with the OP comments on Benjamin. Benjamin was the classic late first-round bet based on potential rather than performance - we all saw the NCAA Championship game and could envision KB stretching out to make catches in the NFL against outsized DBs. The subsequent reality was that KB was lacking in professional maturity and motivation, was lacking focus on each play as the #1 receiver in the NFL, and never provided the production that warrants being a #1 receiver who is in his 4th yr in the NFL.

The fact that the Panthers offense is not clicking while still being in the thick of the chase for the postseason made this trade an obvious one from my perspective. It was a good trade for both teams. Buffalo gets a large target at a position of need for a team that is trying to make noise with a desperate fanbase - Buffalo has not made the playoffs since 1999!!! Contrary to the kneejerk analysts thus far, my own opinion is that the Bills were forced to overpay for KB with this trade in order to break the playoff drought this year.

As for Carolina, the trade benefits on both the Business side and the football side. The business side is easy, KB will enter his Option year in 2018. His trade value would drop off significantly as a result while concomitantly his Cap hit to the Panthers increases significantly. 

As for the football side, the numbers don't lie. As a #1 receiver for a moribund offense, his production was only slightly better than Funchess who is of similar size and measurements. By trading KB before this trading deadline, Carolina gets premium compensation for KB, improves their Cap situation next year, and arguably does not worsen the offense by trading away a player that is literally replaceable with another current player. KB was the 28th pick 5 yrs ago who didn't produce the way a borderline 1st/2nd round receiver should have by Year 4/5...to receive a 3rd and 7th round pick is great value.

Some intangibles that make this trade sensible to me are: 

1) Cam has been put on notice by having a security blanket taken away - I actually would be optimistic that he refocuses. 

2) The offense will run more efficiently. KB and Funchess are interchangeable. This trade is addition by subtraction as it will allow more options and scenarios to become available. If Funchess could have the same trade value as KB today, it would have made similar sense to trade him away today instead of KB...but KB was the one that had trade value.

3) I view Rivera positively. He had been dealt one wacky card after another by the previous GM. Since the team is in the middle of a playoff hunt, I think the KB trade restores authority in the locker room and will hone the team to the goal at hand. With reminders of Olsen's imminent return, the offensive players will hopefully be re-energized.

I can dig this. I hope you're right, but I'm going to miss those amazing endzone td's and we still have Shula. 

[darrybear]

1 hour ago, Proudiddy said:

I agree with all of what you say here, Fiz.  That being said, i still think it's a bad move.  Idk what was worse, as someone who was never a fan of the KB pick either - Drafting him in the first place?  Or, even with all of his apathy, mental lapses, and lack of refined skills as a reciever, trading him away when he was our best option for no immediate value in return.

Who knows though...  maybe this forces the offense to change.  I've complained since Smitty was unceremoniously dismissed, the biggest problem with our offense was receivers inability to separate, and KB was the poster child of that.  He was another object of Gettleman's fetishized affection.

 I don't think we could've got any more for him. I think we inflate his value because we support the team and we see more of him.  but from the outside looking in I don't think Marshmellow  was THAT valuable to other teams OR at least worth that much.