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No more Watson threads. Use this one or one of the other 20 existing ones.


rayzor
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3 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

Correct, one QB with a competent staff and solid supporting cast around him.  Watson would have neither here.  You are seemingly willing to wait for the Panthers to build around Watson, so why not wait for us to draft a guy next year?  My only rationale is you feel that Watson has this well of untapped potential or either a die-hard Clemson fan.

I've stated my case against the Watson trade and my points are numerous.  Your point is the belief he will turn this organization around...seemingly almost by his presence alone.

Because rookie QBs are total wildcards, and you basically never have a proven franchise QB hit the market in the middle of his prime. Even IF Carolina is in a position to draft a guy they really like in 2023, which is no certainty, then they have to hope he develops or they're right back at square one three years later. This is the same spin cycle that has cursed numerous franchises for years: see Dolphins, Jets, Bills (prior to Allen), Broncos (prior to PM), Browns, etc. 

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7 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

 You are seemingly willing to wait for the Panthers to build around Watson, so why not wait for us to draft a guy next year?

It's simply a known versus unknown. With Watson you know exactly what you're getting. With a rook, you're buying a black box and hoping it's got the keys you a brand new car inside. It might have a stick if chewing gum.

You know Watson is absolutely a top tier quarterback. You have no idea if the drafted guy will be a bust, be a JAG, be a replacement level (Jimmy G, Cousins) or be a top tier guy.

Edited by trueblade
Changed buying to getting
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5 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I agree but where is Watson under contract for 10 years?  Don't you think the Houston Texans thought they were going to have their QB for the next 10+ years when they drafted Watson?

That's the only thing for me.  What if things sour with our front office/management after 3-5 years?

How many franchise QBs have not signed extensions in their prime, Watson included, actually? It's not a particularly large risk that you will lose a franchise QB in his prime. They never hit the open FA market. If you can provide legitimate counter-examples, I'd be happy to consider them. But you can't because there aren't any. 

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1 minute ago, Julio said:

Davis Mills, 67th pick out of Stanford

So a rookie with a rookie with a horrible offensive line... still did better than TMJ on our roster. The bottom line is that TMJ isnt see as a valuable piece in a trade, he wont be in the deal unless there is 5-6 players invovled. Id move on from this concept.

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Just now, trueblade said:

It's simply a known versus unknown. With Watson you know exactly what you're buying. With a rook, you're buying a black box and hoping it's got the keys you a brand new car inside. It might have a stick if chewing gum.

You know Watson is absolutely a top tier quarterback. You have no idea if the drafted guy will be a bust, be a JAG, be a replacement level (Jimmy G, Cousins) or be a top tier guy.

How do you build around Watson?

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Just now, TheCasillas said:

So a rookie with a rookie with a horrible offensive line... still did better than TMJ on our roster. The bottom line is that TMJ isnt see as a valuable piece in a trade, he wont be in the deal unless there is 5-6 players invovled. Id move on from this concept.

Source? 

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6 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Hold up.  Signing teddy made sense to you at the time?  Sweet christ kid log off for the night.  

Put aside being an overly-emotional fan for a second and understand that Carolina was never going to go into 2020 with Kyle Allen or some similar scrub as its starting QB. Signing a guy who'd proven to be a capable backup QB who could come in and competently start, had first round pedigree, and was still reasonably young made plenty of sense. There was plenty of objective praise for that move at that time, because it was a solid move. It didn't work out. You move on. Not as though his contract crippled the franchise or anything. 

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2 minutes ago, Smittymoose said:

How many franchise QBs have not signed extensions in their prime, Watson included, actually? It's not a particularly large risk that you will lose a franchise QB in his prime. They never hit the open FA market. If you can provide legitimate counter-examples, I'd be happy to consider them. But you can't because there aren't any. 

I'm just pointing out the risk that a guy who is unhappy and forcing a trade becomes unhappy and forces another trade in the future.  I don't think its that far fetched.

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8 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Hold up.  Signing teddy made sense to you at the time?  Sweet christ kid log off for the night.  

Bridgewater made sense if they had drafted a QB in 2020 or kept Bridgewater and drafted Fields in 2021. Management had the right general idea and f*cked it up hardcore. Should have just kept Cam

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2 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

How do you build around Watson?

Are you sure you meant to quote me? You're quoting my response to the question "You are seemingly willing to wait for the Panthers to build around Watson, so why not wait for us to draft a guy next year?"

Your question doesn't seem relevant to my answer.

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1 minute ago, Smittymoose said:

Put aside being an overly-emotional fan for a second and understand that Carolina was never going to go into 2020 with Kyle Allen or some similar scrub as its starting QB. Signing a guy who'd proven to be a capable backup QB who could come in and competently start, had first round pedigree, and was still reasonably young made plenty of sense. There was plenty of objective praise for that move at that time, because it was a solid move. It didn't work out. You move on. Not as though his contract crippled the franchise or anything. 

Log off kid. You are in over your head 

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    • The referee assigned to this game is Shawn Smith. This is a critical data point for betting purposes because his crew has one of the most distinct, long-term statistical biases in the NFL. "Road Team" Bias: Historically, Shawn Smith is known as the "Road Team Referee." In a league where home teams usually win ~55% of the time, home teams in Smith's games have historically won at a rate far below league average (often hovering around 40-42%). Against The Spread (ATS): The trend is even starker here. Home teams have covered the spread at a rate of roughly 37-40% in his career. The Mechanism: Analysis shows his crew tends to call a higher rate of False Start and Unnecessary Roughness penalties on the Home Team. This negates the traditional home-field advantage (crowd noise causing false starts for the visitors). Impact on This Game: This specific assignment heavily favors the Buccaneers (Road Team). If you believe the referee influences the game, Smith's presence suggests the Panthers will struggle to get "home cooking" calls and may face untimely procedural flags that stall drives. The Panthers have only had Shawn Smith officiate four home games since he became a head referee in 2018, and they are all losses. Date Opponent Result Score Nov 24, 2024 vs. Kansas City Chiefs Loss 27–30 Oct 9, 2022 vs. San Francisco 49ers Loss 15–37 Dec 12, 2021 vs. Atlanta Falcons Loss 21–29 Nov 25, 2018 vs. Seattle Seahawks Loss 27–30 Considering the how rare it is for Shawn Smith to officiate a Panthers game at all, this seems like an odd time to assign him to a Panthers game, unless the NFL wants to kill the Panthers season once and for all.  The Panthers' offensive line situation creates a "perfect storm" for referee Shawn Smith's specific tendency to call False Starts on the home team. The "Carousel" Factor (Communication Vulnerability) The most damning stat for the Panthers' offensive line in 2025 is their lack of continuity. The Stat: By Week 13, the Panthers had already fielded their 10th different offensive line combination. The Impact: False starts are often "communication penalties"—they happen when a guard doesn't hear the center's snap count or a tackle anticipates the wrong cadence. A unit that hasn't played together struggles with non-verbal communication. The Shawn Smith Multiplier: Shawn Smith’s crew calls False Starts at a high rate on home teams. He will likely look for flinches on the exterior of the line. A disjointed line that is constantly rotating players (due to the injuries of starters like Cade Mays and the illness issues with Robert Hunt earlier this season) is "fresh meat" for this specific referee bias. The Specific Culprits (2025 Penalties) Ikem Ekwonu (LT): Leads the team with 4 False Start penalties this season. He is the most frequent violator on the line. Taylor Moton (RT): Has been flagged for 3 False Starts. The Trap: Smith’s crew often focuses on the tackles (the players furthest from the ball) jumping early to get an edge on speed rushers. Since Ekwonu struggles with this discipline naturally, having a referee who hunts for it is a massive disadvantage. The "Managed Outcome" Synthesis The "Bucs Cover" Script: If the desired outcome is a Buccaneers win to solidify their playoff standing, the officials simply have to apply the letter of the law. Calling strict False Starts on a confused, banged-up Panthers O-line will consistently put them in "3rd and Long" situations, killing their drives and allowing the Bucs (-3.5) to cover easily. The "Close Game" Script: If the desired outcome is "Week 18 Drama" (keeping the division tied), look for the officials to ignore the Panthers' twitchy tackles. If Ekwonu jumps a split-second early and no flag is thrown, it effectively neutralizes the Bucs' pass rush, allowing the Panthers to keep the score close. Summary of the Edge Vulnerability: Extreme. The Panthers are playing backup interior linemen (like Jake Curhan or practice squad call-ups) next to jumpy tackles. Betting Implication: This strongly reinforces the Bucs -3 or -3.5 play. The combination of a "Road Team Referee" and a "Home Team O-Line in chaos" suggests the Panthers will beat themselves with procedural penalties. Based on the collision of the hard data (Referee bias + Offensive Line injuries) and the soft narratives ("Managed Outcomes"), here is the definitive recommendation. If you have to place a single Moneyline bet to win this game straight up: The Pick: Tampa Bay Buccaneers (-165) While the "Entertainment Script" hints at a Panthers upset to keep the division messy, the structural disadvantage the Panthers face in this specific matchup is too massive to ignore. Here is why the Buccaneers are the stong moneyline play: 1. The "Shawn Smith" Road-Field Advantage This is the decisive factor. In the NFL, Home Field Advantage usually accounts for about 1.5 to 2 points of value. The Reality: Referee Shawn Smith negates that advantage entirely. His crew calls penalties in a way that historically suppresses home crowd momentum (False Starts, holding). The Result: You are essentially getting the Buccaneers on a neutral field (or even a "pseudo-home" field) against a team with a worse roster. 2. The "Drive-Killer" Synergy To win as an underdog, the Panthers need to play a clean, mistake-free game to keep drives alive. The combination of Panthers' 10th O-Line combo + Jump-prone Tackles (Ekwonu) + A Referee who hunts False Starts is a recipe for disaster. The Scenario: Expect the Panthers to face multiple "1st and 15" or "3rd and 12" situations due to procedural flags. These drive-killers will force them to punt or settle for field goals, while the Bucs' offense (led by Mayfield) stays on schedule. 3. The "TV Product" Counter-Argument You asked about the "Managed Outcome." While a Panthers win creates "chaos," the NFL also values Star Power in the playoffs. Baker Mayfield and the Buccaneers are a proven national TV draw with recent playoff history. If the league has to choose between "Chaos" (Panthers) and "Ratings/Legitimacy" (Bucs), the "Script" likely leans toward ensuring the Buccaneers—the more marketable team—secure the division lead. They won't "fix" the game against the Panthers, but they won't intervene to save them from their own penalties. Final Verdict Betting on the Panthers requires you to hope for a miracle 4th-quarter collapse. Betting on the Buccaneers requires you to trust that a superior roster—aided by a favorable officiating crew—will control the game for the first 45 minutes. Take the Buccaneers Moneyline. The "Safe" money is on the Ref. The Prediction: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Win and Cover Projected Score: Buccaneers 27, Panthers 17 The Bet: Buccaneers -3 (or Moneyline -165) Confidence Level: High on the Winner; Moderate on the Spread (due to potential "garbage time" variance).
    • He isn't a good HC. I think he has proved that conclusively.
    • The missed tackle percentage is on that screen cap.
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