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The question of the day: is Derrick Brown good, elite, or fine?

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JawnyBlaze Grand Master

JawnyBlaze

Posted
Posted
59 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Sorry, but that’s way too rosy IMHO. I can’t say he was the best DT aside from Donald. I’d put him top 10 in 2022, but he needs to do that consistently. Also, saying he was good to great in 2021 is just being a homer. He had a terrible sophomore slump and he was not disruptive at all. PJ Walker, according to Mahomes, threw the best pass of the year last year. Every player makes a good play here and there but Brown had a down year in 2021. It was a big topic of discussion with many people throwing out the bust label. 2022 was completely opposite but it doesn’t mean 2021 didn’t happen. Here’s a link about his improvement from 2021 to 2022 and it starts: “With two mediocre seasons behind him” and he went from a 64 to 84 in PFF ranking. 64 is just above bad (50s) and well below elite (mid 80s/90+), kind of below average. 70s are average to above average/good.

Quoting PFF doesn’t help your argument. In ‘21 he was still very good, flashed great at times. He just wasn’t very good in the way that impresses most people (like PFF). He did the dirty work. And he was very good at it. Overreactionary people (and people who don’t look past surface stats and roles) around here were throwing out the bust label while I and a few others were pointing out how he was actually doing what he was supposed to be doing very well.  Not perfect, not elite, but certainly not mediocre. He was only mediocre if you’re trying to compare him to a different type of DT that wasn’t his role (which is what PFF does). 

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JawnyBlaze Grand Master

JawnyBlaze

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51 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Don't agree at all. How many times did Snow rush only 3  in pass defense. He was doubled all the time. When we were getting gashed by the run all the time what did you think they told Brown? Focus on getting to the quarterback or focus on the run first and then worry about the pass versus Burns for example  who always went wide to go for the sack. Brown has obviously improved but his 2022 was also influenced by a difference DC and scheme. So yeah it was scheme and what he was asked to do.

Yea, saying he was blocked 1 on 1 all the time just negates everything. 

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WhoKnows Grand Master

WhoKnows

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1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Don't agree at all. How many times did Snow rush only 3  in pass defense. He was doubled all the time. When we were getting gashed by the run all the time what did you think they told Brown? Focus on getting to the quarterback or focus on the run first and then worry about the pass versus Burns for example  who always went wide to go for the sack. Brown has obviously improved but his 2022 was also influenced by a difference DC and scheme. So yeah it was scheme and what he was asked to do.

Damn, you guys have Rhule PTSD and can’t accept the fact that Brown had a really bad year in 2021 for a 7th overall pick and that he looked way better in 2022 even with Rhule still there. In 2021, Brown was easily blocked by 1 OL and in 2022 he wasn’t. It’s that simple.

That obsessive description of our fans is spot on. You can’t be critical of favorites and there are boogeymen that can’t be forgotten.

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AU-panther Mentor

AU-panther

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JawnyBlaze said:

Quoting PFF doesn’t help your argument. In ‘21 he was still very good, flashed great at times. He just wasn’t very good in the way that impresses most people (like PFF). He did the dirty work. And he was very good at it. Overreactionary people (and people who don’t look past surface stats and roles) around here were throwing out the bust label while I and a few others were pointing out how he was actually doing what he was supposed to be doing very well.  Not perfect, not elite, but certainly not mediocre. He was only mediocre if you’re trying to compare him to a different type of DT that wasn’t his role (which is what PFF does). 

So where exactly is PFF calling him mediocre? 
They actually have a very good ranking on him.

 

Edited by AU-panther
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WhoKnows Grand Master

WhoKnows

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1 hour ago, JawnyBlaze said:

Yea, saying he was blocked 1 on 1 all the time just negates everything. 

Do you seriously not remember 2021? Brown was absolutely getting blocked by one guy, many times. We had threads about whether he was a bust or not and clips of him getting taken out of plays by one blocker because the excuse was constant double teaming. I’m sorry but his PFF grade for 2021 was accurate. Scary that anyone could think he was anywhere near great in 2021. The improvement from 2021 to 2022 was night and day.

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WhoKnows Grand Master

WhoKnows

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6 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

So where exactly is PFF calling him mediocre? 
They actually have a very good ranking on him.

 

This article said that about 2020/2021:

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2023/02/20/panthers-derrick-brown-pff-most-improved-player/#
 

His 2021 grade was 64, which is mediocre/below average. His 2022 grade was 84, which was top 10, not mediocre.

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tiger7_88 Experienced

tiger7_88

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3 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

We’re splitting some hairs but IMHO, the pass rush does move a DT into elite zone. None of these guys are in the Donald or even Short, in his prime, category, but going 7th or even 12th means you better be pro bowl material if you aren’t racking up sacks. I point out the higher sack years because that shows me that Vea and Ngata did get enough pressure on QBs to get some luck and make a bunch of sacks some years. 5-6 is a very good DT sack year especially to 300+ guys.

Vea and Ngata are TRUE nose tackles whereas Brown is a defensive tackle who CAN play NT (and at a high level) but it isn’t his natural position.

And even then he’s been one of the two most (if not THE most) impactful players on the defense.

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tiger7_88 Experienced

tiger7_88

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39 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Do you seriously not remember 2021? Brown was absolutely getting blocked by one guy, many times.

You didn’t say “many times” in the post to which he replied.

You said he was getting blocked by one guy (and I quote) “all the time” which was farcical on its face.

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panthers55 Grand Master

panthers55

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, WhoKnows said:

Damn, you guys have Rhule PTSD and can’t accept the fact that Brown had a really bad year in 2021 for a 7th overall pick and that he looked way better in 2022 even with Rhule still there. In 2021, Brown was easily blocked by 1 OL and in 2022 he wasn’t. It’s that simple.

That obsessive description of our fans is spot on. You can’t be critical of favorites and there are boogeymen that can’t be forgotten.

He had more tackles and sacks in 2021 versus 2020. Just looking at numbers he has shown progression. Did he look good in 2021?  No but neither did the team. Football is a team sport and every player in dependent on the guys around him and his coaching.

Javon Kinlaw was the other DT draftdon't. The first round in 2020 and his stats during his first 2 years was much worse than Brown. And he played for San Fran. Sure he only played 24 games over that time versus Browns 32 but like you said let's ignore scheme and playing time and just focus on individual performance regardless of context. It is fine to be critical if you have a valid point of view but in this case you dont.

Edited by panthers55
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JawnyBlaze Grand Master

JawnyBlaze

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26 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

He had more tackles and sacks in 2021 versus 2020. Just looking at numbers he has shown progression. Did he look good in 2021?  No but neither did the team. Football is a team sport and every player in dependent on the guys around him and his coaching.

Javon Kinlaw was the other DT draftdon't. The first round in 2020 and his stats during his first 2 years was much worse than Brown. And he played for San Fran. Sure he only played 24 games over that time versus Browns 32 but like you said let's ignore scheme and playing time and just focus on individual performance regardless of context. It is fine to be critical if you have a valid point of view but in this case you dont.

Sad confession: I preferred Kinlaw at the time 😣 Glad I was wrong on that one. 

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panthers55 Grand Master

panthers55

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6 minutes ago, JawnyBlaze said:

Sad confession: I preferred Kinlaw at the time 😣 Glad I was wrong on that one. 

Predicting success it is a crapshoot at best particularly when you don't know how they will do in the scheme they will play or who their coaches and teammates will be.

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kungfoodude Grand Master

kungfoodude

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I would say he is a good DT that can play elite in spurts. I don't think he is an elite player at the position yet, although it is trending that way.

Want to see him continue to improve and be much more consistent. Also gonna need to see him continue to play well when he gets a new deal.

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