Where would the Panthers be if they sat Bryce Young last season?

[strato]

I just hope one thing is correct, and if I knew it was decided I could detach and watch without stressing over the future.

The one thing is: this year is truly make it or break it for him. 

But my LARGE fear is that he will again not measure up in cost vs production and the eyeball test (again), but because the team around him was totally overhauled...

He will do JUST enough to sell people on the con that he will get make the leap in year three because IT TAKES ANOTHER YEAR TO INTEGRATE HIS WEAPONS and for the OL TO GEL!!!! (the new excuse).

And here we are again with me closer to dead and the team another year farther away from the prize.

This is YEAR 7.

 

 

[Navy_football]

2 hours ago, strato said:

So okay according to you, and to be fair, others too, the state of affairs is:

he couldn’t have done any better last year because of all the horrible players and coaches that didn’t do their jobs. 

And

People that talk about him not doing a good job, even though he was historically bad, are ruining it for his fans.

And top it off with: real fans know what good is, and the doubters don't.  Got it.

 

 

No strato. He definitely COULD have made more plays, but asking a rookie QB to lead such a bad supporting cast is not realistic. And I think Bryce was overthinking out there. He didn't trust his team mates. He didn't trust the playcalling. He didn't look prepared. The WRs didn't look prepared. The oline didn't look prepared. It's ridiculous they couldn't figure out how to block a stunt or delayed blitz all season. No rookie would have been successful in this offense last season. No rookie QB, no rookie WR, no rookie olineman, no rookie RB. Not just Bryce. No Rookie would have looked competent when the vets aren't at least NFL average. Couple that with bad coaching, and ... impossible. Not saying Bryce is the answer. Saying we don't know. And the hot takes most are on here making about him are just not true. That or just gross exaggerations. 

[strato]

17 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

No strato. He definitely COULD have made more plays, but asking a rookie QB to lead such a bad supporting cast is not realistic. And I think Bryce was overthinking out there. He didn't trust his team mates. He didn't trust the playcalling. He didn't look prepared. The WRs didn't look prepared. The oline didn't look prepared. It's ridiculous they couldn't figure out how to block a stunt or delayed blitz all season. No rookie would have been successful in this offense last season. No rookie QB, no rookie WR, no rookie olineman, no rookie RB. Not just Bryce. No Rookie would have looked competent when the vets aren't at least NFL average. Couple that with bad coaching, and ... impossible. Not saying Bryce is the answer. Saying we don't know. And the hot takes most are on here making about him are just not true. That or just gross exaggerations. 

Navy, how many excuses did you manage to fit into that paragraph? NM, I am not counting but it is impressive.

I have actually said before I see how they could get something out of him, which is design everything just for him. He has to be hidden. He has some things he does that can move the ball. With enough help. And they have to execute it. It won’t be great but it will be enough to get out of the top 5 in the draft next year. 

I am not gonna ever sign on to this guy if what he has shown he can do, is all he can do.

If they don’t do anything this year and they bring him back, don’t worry. I’ll won’t be like those fools that threatened to leave if Trump was elected and then act like they didn’t say it, I’ll be out. For real. Saying it now, if he sucks and they don’t admit it and bring in real competition, I am for sure OUT. So you should probably hope for him to suck -again- and the team to be fuging stupid about it -again-. 

I did figure out what this year’s new excuse will be though, and wondering how long it takes people to start using it. 

Edited May 8 by strato

[Jackie Lee]

20 minutes ago, strato said:

I just hope one thing is correct, and if I knew it was decided I could detach and watch without stressing over the future.

The one thing is: this year is truly make it or break it for him. 

But my LARGE fear is that he will again not measure up in cost vs production and the eyeball test (again), but because the team around him was totally overhauled...

He will do JUST enough to sell people on the con that he will get make the leap in year three because IT TAKES ANOTHER YEAR TO INTEGRATE HIS WEAPONS and for the OL TO GEL!!!! (the new excuse).

And here we are again with me closer to dead and the team another year farther away from the prize.

This is YEAR 7.

 

 

That's kind of the worst part about not sitting him the last few games of the year. Really would have been helpful seeing a guy that actually was a decent starter in the NFL run the offense just to see how much of it was the entire offense vs BY just sucking. Defenses play different QB's differently but seems like some people don't see that type of trickle down effect

[strato]

Yeah. Absolutely. People missed the points to be considered with Dalton/Seattle and make it about oh we didn’t win, see, Dalton isn’t any better. Or oh he didn’t complete xxx number(s) or whatever. (edit: how many were called? Better question, and I am not sure of that)

People last week or a few days back want to forget totally about the real reason we wanted to see another QB (besides hopng to be competitive).

The interest with most of his doubters lay in the downfield passing game. Where was it? Reich’s first two games following that ‘close to the vest’ ruse they used in preseason.... The big prize QBs first two games. Combined = Uugghh.

Everyone was upset. Some at Reich and not the QB, but upset (me, I was baffled at Reich/the inexplicable at the time, offense, we got less than even what I expected from Young). Two games and maybe 3 (three) weak and ineffective deep ball attempts, with the top drafted and VERY expensive to acquire player. 

I was definitely freaking out. Frank was obviously limiting him and I thought it was Tepper until I could tell no, Tepper wants more than this, wtf? Then, after much consideration and confusion, I realized I did not understand what happened and would \never know unless someone involved told me. But my best guess was Frank had zero faith in Bryce Young.

But back to the Seattle Dalton thing...  after an entire camp and preseason, Dalton had those plays in the book BUT Young Did Not and we saw  that in Seattle and THAT was the relevant takeaway for all you...well I will be nice and refer to you as...  people that couldn’t figure that out. 

 

Edited May 9 by strato

[CRA]

15 hours ago, strato said:

I was definitely freaking out. Frank was obviously limiting him and I thought it was Tepper until I could tell no, Tepper wants more than this, wtf? Then, after much consideration and confusion, I realized I did not understand what happened and would \never know unless someone involved told me. But my best guess was Frank had zero faith in Bryce Young.

well Reich pretty bluntly said a meh vet QB had basic downfield plays installed for him for the week that Bryce didn't have. 

Reich also said that an old and unremarkable Andy Dalton being inserted on 4th down presented a much greater threat than Bryce Young (the #1 overall pick we mortgaged our future with). 

Frank was a safe coaching pick off Rhule.  Bryce Young doesn't have the NFL tools for a safe coach to even be that.  That's the 2024 story.   Bryce can't make the throws.   Bryce can't sit in a traditional pocket.  NFL defenses know that.  The limitations are pretty glaring despite whatever strengths to his game may exist.  Bryce couldn't do anything to change what defenses were getting away with.  He just played right into it. 

[strato]

I believe Reich said Dalton asked for the playbook to be expanded. But that’s just from memory which is usually pretty good but not 100% court of law reliable. Yeah, people weren’t spelling it out but there was some truth to be gleaned from actions taken, and not taken.

Edited May 9 by strato

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

well Reich pretty bluntly said a meh vet QB had basic downfield plays installed for him for the week that Bryce didn't have. 

Reich also said that an old and unremarkable Andy Dalton being inserted on 4th down presented a much greater threat than Bryce Young (the #1 overall pick we mortgaged our future with). 

Frank was a safe coaching pick off Rhule.  Bryce Young doesn't have the NFL tools for a safe coach to even be that.  That's the 2024 story.   Bryce can't make the throws.   Bryce can't sit in a traditional pocket.  NFL defenses know that.  The limitations are pretty glaring despite whatever strengths to his game may exist.  Bryce couldn't do anything to change what defenses were getting away with.  He just played right into it. 

Oh my god please post any reference to this.  This might be the most wildly dishonest assertion I've seen on these boards in a while.  Here is what Reich actually said for anyone who cares about facts:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/panthers-frank-reich-says-using-andy-dalton-in-short-yardage-spots-can-limit-bryce-youngs-exposure/

It was about limiting his exposure because, yes, he's a small QB.  And something Reich had a history of doing, even back in Indianapolis.  It's funny that you take to heart the decisions and philosophies of a failed ineffective coach.  Remember when Ron would choose to punt the ball instead of electing to let Gano kick 50ish yard FGs?  Well, it turns out Gano actually had a pretty strong leg and was solid from deep.

[csx]

18 hours ago, Jackie Lee said:

That's kind of the worst part about not sitting him the last few games of the year. Really would have been helpful seeing a guy that actually was a decent starter in the NFL run the offense just to see how much of it was the entire offense vs BY just sucking. Defenses play different QB's differently but seems like some people don't see that type of trickle down effect

What would be the point? Did you want to keep Thomas Brown? 

That would have served no practical purpose.

[ForJimmy]

47 minutes ago, strato said:

I believe Reich said Dalton asked for the playbook to be expanded. But that’s just from memory which is usually pretty good but not 100% court of law reliable. Yeah, people weren’t spelling it out but there was some truth to be gleaned from actions taken, and not taken.

Reich had the same offense for Dalton as Bryce and you are correct Dalton himself wrote in some plays to incorporate.  Since he was a veteran he let him do it.  The thing that people are off on is the sudden deep passing game.  There were 2 out of 60 passes completed for over 20 yards.  One was like 27 to wide open Chark with 20 YAC and the other was like 23 to AT.  Hence why the average was still 6.6 per attempt....

[MasterAwesome]

18 hours ago, strato said:

I never claimed to be level headed. Just not blind.

Well, we all need to use our brains too...not just our eyes.  Our eyes tell us that Bryce was objectively bad last year.  Our brains are what allow us the critical thinking to deduce why Bryce was bad, which is the crux of the disagreement.  Perhaps Bryce just doesn't have the tools to be a starting QB in this league and this season will confirm that for us.  But you seem to not even be able to fathom or acknowledge the possibility that Bryce's poor play (i.e. bad footwork, bad downfield accuracy, bad decision-making, etc.) could in large part be a product of abysmal circumstances including poor coaching, poor playcalling, poor pass protection, and a poor receiving corps.  You call them "excuses", which they are, but how can you not understand that those can very well be inextricably linked?  It's like getting punched in the stomach repeatedly during karaoke night and then people complaining that your singing was off pitch.  Are you actually a good singer?  I don't know, that performance really sucked but I'm willing to give you one more song under better conditions.

[Green-Ghost]

On 5/2/2024 at 6:55 AM, hepcat said:

Hypothetical offseason question. If the Panthers sat Bryce in 2023 and played Dalton instead, where would the Panthers be going into 2024? One thing is certain, things would be VERY different. 

1) Frank Reich doesn’t get fired. Dalton is a veteran and operated Frank’s offense far more effectively in the one game he started than Bryce did. The Panthers likely look a lot more competent early on and Frank doesn’t get fired mid-season.

Caveat - It’s also been quietly mentioned in some media outlets that Frank and the staff preferred to draft CJ Stroud and might have tanked the season intentionally to get fired, all speculation. But the vanilla offensive scheme might have been a coincidence due to lack of talent and competence, or perhaps malicious compliance. 

2) The Panthers wouldn’t have been the worst team in the NFL. The defense was fairly good in 2023 despite the fact the offense was the worst in the NFL with Young under center. With a veteran starting at QB, the offense would possess the ball for longer periods of time and could have lead to even better performances from the defense. 

3) Scott Fitterer doesn’t get fired. A move I think was needed either way, but if the Panthers resembled anything in the way of competency in 2023, Fitterer doesn’t get the axe especially because they hadn’t seen what Bryce can do on the field yet. 

4) David Tepper doesn’t throw a drink at a fan. I think we’re all tired of the owner of this franchise embarrassing the fans with his immature behavior but hey, I have to imagine that his rage wouldn’t have been at level 10 if they hadn’t had the disaster of a season they did in 2023.

5) Bryce has a good 2024? Biggest leap I can make in this speculation but I think if Bryce sat in 2024, and the team makes similar moves to build the offense around him, he would come into a much better situation after having a chance to learn on the bench behind a veteran instead of the situation he was thrust into. 
 

We will never know how this would have played out but it is fun to speculate!

One thing to remember is the armchair quarterback rule. It is fun to speculate, but, keep in mind. We did not have this knowledge back then.

I think this depends upon how you bench young.  Does he get benched but continue to learn and develop under a veteran quarterback or does he get benched with the decision to cut him next season?

My thought on any new quarterback is to have him play behind a veteran quarterback for the first season.  If you play the rookie quarterback immediately, it would be like throwing the non-swimmer into the swimming pool to see if he/she will sink or swim.

in this case, I actually think it was a blessing to play young through the whole season. Here is why:  I am personally concerned about young’s physical ability.  Size,  etc.  If the physical ability is a problem, it’s best to find out now rather than during the second season.

Having young play through this entire first season also allowed young to become experienced. Obviously he is not a bad quarterback yet, but he is no longer a rookie quarterback and he now has experience.  

I think the real question here is how long do you play young this season before you drop him altogether?

By the way, I have a different opinion regarding Tepper throwing water on a fan.  How do we know if the fan was possibly cheering an injury?  What I heard was a fan was cheering an injury to a Panther player.  I am not saying that what Tepper did is acceptable but I am saying it was understandable.  It is human nature, the person who retaliates always gets noticed and suffers the consequences.

 

[mrcompletely11]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

Well, we all need to use our brains too...not just our eyes.  Our eyes tell us that Bryce was objectively bad last year.  Our brains are what allow us the critical thinking to deduce why Bryce was bad, which is the crux of the disagreement.  Perhaps Bryce just doesn't have the tools to be a starting QB in this league and this season will confirm that for us.  But you seem to not even be able to fathom or acknowledge the possibility that Bryce's poor play (i.e. bad footwork, bad downfield accuracy, bad decision-making, etc.) could in large part be a product of abysmal circumstances including poor coaching, poor playcalling, poor pass protection, and a poor receiving corps.  You call them "excuses", which they are, but how can you not understand that those can very well be inextricably linked?  It's like getting punched in the stomach repeatedly during karaoke night and then people complaining that your singing was off pitch.  Are you actually a good singer?  I don't know, that performance really sucked but I'm willing to give you one more song under better conditions.

The bad footwork/mechanics and bad deep ball were on display at bama.   This isnt a new thing.  Some of us dumb ass huddlers were pointing that out way before he was drafted here.

 

If he hasnt worked on those issues since 8th grade why should we expect him to do it this off season?

[mrcompletely11]

1 hour ago, Green-Ghost said:

By the way, I have a different opinion regarding Tepper throwing water on a fan.  How do we know if the fan was possibly cheering an injury?  What I heard was a fan was cheering an injury to a Panther player.  I am not saying that what Tepper did is acceptable but I am saying it was understandable.  It is human nature, the person who retaliates always gets noticed and suffers the consequences.

 

Sure buddy, I am sure you heard that.  Tell us where you did?  Tepper threw the drink after bryces int