Bryce Young won't play in preseason opener

[Newtcase]

6 minutes ago, Icege said:

 

By the very definition, your attempt to exclusively focus on protection is a strawman.

As stated already, the combination of bad protection, lack of separation, poor play design, and poor play calling made life even more difficult for a rookie QB. Nobody could have performed well under those conditions. You're picking strictly one part of that and pointing out that a x3 SB champ and 8yr vet were pressured a similar amount of times played better. You're doing this because think that you can easily defeat that when the actual argument is ALL of those factors made success impossible for any QB. Not just one factor.

tldr; nobody has said Bryce played bad just because of the bad protection so your attempt to focus solely on that when comparing a rookie to a x3 SB champ + 8yr vet is a strawman fallacy.

What you see as cause I see as effect.  Soon it will be undeniable to all.

[Icege]

Just now, Newtcase said:

What you see as cause I see as effect.  Soon it will be undeniable to all.

That we can both agree on.

[amcoolio]

I'm fine with not playing Bryce in this weather against a traditionally dirty team, but he better play the next two weeks

[MasterAwesome]

8 minutes ago, Newtcase said:

What you see as cause I see as effect.  Soon it will be undeniable to all.

I just am shocked we're going down this road where we're walking back everything we saw with our own two eyes last year and trying to delude ourselves into thinking maybe our receivers, o-line, playcalling, coaching staff, etc. were not so bad and it was all Bryce's fault.  Just to clarify, is it really your position that we actually had a talented roster and coaching staff (particularly on the offensive side) that were all held back by Bryce?  Or am I misunderstanding?  Cause to me, that's a much harder position to defend than what the "Bryce cope" squad is saying, which is that Bryce was surely part of the problem but our team was an absolute shitshow that made it hard to properly apportion how much blame falls on his shoulders.  I truly don't understand why that is such an unreasonable position.

[ForJimmy]

7 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I just am shocked we're going down this road where we're walking back everything we saw with our own two eyes last year and trying to delude ourselves into thinking maybe our receivers, o-line, playcalling, coaching staff, etc. were not so bad and it was all Bryce's fault.  Just to clarify, is it really your position that we actually had a talented roster and coaching staff (particularly on the offensive side) that were all held back by Bryce?  Or am I misunderstanding?  Cause to me, that's a much harder position to defend than what the "Bryce cope" squad is saying, which is that Bryce was surely part of the problem but our team was an absolute shitshow that made it hard to properly apportion how much blame falls on his shoulders.  I truly don't understand why that is such an unreasonable position.

But if you compare him to Mahomes he falls short (pun wasn't intended but I'm rolling with it)....

[MasterAwesome]

36 minutes ago, Icege said:

 

By the very definition, your attempt to exclusively focus on protection is a strawman.

As stated already, the combination of bad protection, lack of separation, poor play design, and poor play calling made life even more difficult for a rookie QB. Nobody could have performed well under those conditions. You're picking strictly one part of that and pointing out that a x3 SB champ and 8yr vet were pressured a similar amount of times played better. You're doing this because think that you can easily defeat that when the actual argument is ALL of those factors made success impossible for any QB. Not just one factor.

tldr; nobody has said Bryce played bad just because of the bad protection so your attempt to focus solely on that when comparing a rookie to a x3 SB champ + 8yr vet is a strawman fallacy.

Not just any 8-year vet...but the 8-year vet with probably a Top 2-3 supporting cast (I only struggle to put them ahead of the 49ers).  Gibbs/Amon-Ra/LaPorta at RB/WR/TE is as good as any in the league.  They have the #1 rated o-line according to PFF.  And Ben Johnson is the most sought-after young offensive playcaller in the league.  These things matter immensely, whether people acknowledge it or not.

[CRA]

20 minutes ago, amcoolio said:

I'm fine with not playing Bryce in this weather against a traditionally dirty team, but he better play the next two weeks

Ideally, the new model would say the smart thing is to rest your starters in game 3.  Best ensures a healthy start.   

Which is why you see the rest of league play their guys in games 1 and 2.  

 

[CRA]

14 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I just am shocked we're going down this road where we're walking back everything we saw with our own two eyes last year and trying to delude ourselves into thinking maybe our receivers, o-line, playcalling, coaching staff, etc. were not so bad and it was all Bryce's fault.  Just to clarify, is it really your position that we actually had a talented roster and coaching staff (particularly on the offensive side) that were all held back by Bryce?  Or am I misunderstanding?  Cause to me, that's a much harder position to defend than what the "Bryce cope" squad is saying, which is that Bryce was surely part of the problem but our team was an absolute shitshow that made it hard to properly apportion how much blame falls on his shoulders.  I truly don't understand why that is such an unreasonable position.

the board is fickle.  Depends when you log on.  Going into last season, this was the best roster around a QB since the 2003 season.   All star coaching staff.   Great talent around the QB.  Then as we sucked, coaching staff were bums.  Talent was the worst ever. 

[MasterAwesome]

5 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

But if you compare him to Mahomes he falls short (pun wasn't intended but I'm rolling with it)....

People really taking that "Mini Mahomes" draft moniker too literally if we're already putting their stat sheets side-by-side as some kind of slam dunk indictment.

[Newtcase]

2 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I just am shocked we're going down this road where we're walking back everything we saw with our own two eyes last year and trying to delude ourselves into thinking maybe our receivers, o-line, playcalling, coaching staff, etc. were not so bad and it was all Bryce's fault.  Just to clarify, is it really your position that we actually had a talented roster and coaching staff (particularly on the offensive side) that were all held back by Bryce?  Or am I misunderstanding?  Cause to me, that's a much harder position to defend than what the "Bryce cope" squad is saying, which is that Bryce was surely part of the problem but our team was an absolute shitshow that made it hard to properly apportion how much blame falls on his shoulders.  I truly don't understand why that is such an unreasonable position.

By no means am I arguing that it's all Bryce, but I would argue that he made us WORSE by a wide margin.

Comparatively, I think most would agree that the Jets expectations fell off a cliff when Rodgers was replaced by Wilson after one series.  The betting odds certainly did.  Competent QB play changes everything.

Believe it or not, I'm not rooting for the kid to fail.  I'd be thrilled to be wrong and it certainly wouldn't be the first time.  My opinions are based off what has happened, not what might happen.  I'm always open to include new information and shift my opinion as appropriate.  I don't have to fit in neat predefined boxes built by insecure huddlers that demand loyalty in the face of disaster.

[MasterAwesome]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

the board is fickle.  Depends when you log on.  Going into last season, this was the best roster around a QB since the 2003 season.   All star coaching staff.   Great talent around the QB.  Then as we sucked, coaching staff were bums.  Talent was the worst ever. 

I really don't understand this argument.  Unless you believe all of that, then since when do we give merit to what people *say* and *feel* during the offseason?  The same posters you're talking about, are the ones who said Bryce Young would take the league by storm and "super processor" this and "Mini Mahomes" that, and that Miles Sanders was a great signing and dominant feature back, that Icky was a stalwart franchise LT, that Brian Burns would have a dominant career year in the 3-4 with Evero, that we were primed to win the division, etc.  We're talking about the super optimistic subset of posters who every year predict big things for this team.  Why favor those preseason opinions over the actual product we saw on the field?

[CRA]

4 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I really don't understand this argument.  Unless you believe all of that, then since when do we give merit to what people *say* and *feel* during the offseason?  The same posters you're talking about, are the ones who said Bryce Young would take the league by storm and "super processor" this and "Mini Mahomes" that, and that Miles Sanders was a great signing and dominant feature back, that Icky was a stalwart franchise LT, that Brian Burns would have a dominant career year in the 3-4 with Evero, that we were primed to win the division, etc.  We're talking about the super optimistic subset of posters who every year predict big things for this team.  Why favor those preseason opinions over the actual product we saw on the field?

 I'm just saying the collective board is fickle often has a bad memory of what the collective narrative is at various points.   The collective board was overall very excited going into last season.  It wasn't a small group.  Think the start of preseason is where you started to see the hype slowly start to fade or be questioned.  I was just pinpointing a specific window in time. 

I also was never it's an Bryce's fault guy.  It wasn't.  Not how bad we were.  I think it would take a really unique place though for Bryce to thrive though.  

[Johnstonny]

I mean...one series with the so called starters shouldn't be out of the question... they already tryin to hide weaknesses and making excuses... Ya'll know the drill...

[CRA]

I lost faith in Rhule in his first actual preseason....and it played out how I expected.  All the signs were there.  Bumbling fool who didn't know what he was doing.  Clear as day. 

I lost faith in Frank in his first actual preseason.....and it played out how I expected.   All the signs were there.   Apathetic.   You could tell their was no belief.  

I'll give Canales more time but right now the red flags IMO are going off already on him.  But maybe there is something there we don't know yet.  Like injury to Bryce or our starting OL.  But if there isn't.....this is red flag.