Giving up on John Fox

[Mr. Scot]

For me, as I've said before, I still believe he can be a good coach somewhere, but as far as the combo of Fox and the Panthers, both sides likely benefit from a split.

As far as when I started to lose faith, the Arizona playoff game did it for me.

Anquan Boldin was out. The Cards had Larry Fitzgerald and little else. Gantt practically screamed in a pre-game article that Fox needed to abandon his usual "left corner/right corner" philosophy and put Chris Gamble in Larry Fitzgerald's hip pocket. Many of us had said the same thing. It was pitifully obvious to everyone.

Everyone, sadly, except John Fox

We changed DC and defensive staff after that, but it wasn't on Fox's initiative. Given the choice, he'd have kept things as they were. Who knows what things might have been like had he gotten his wish?

I tried to be optimistic in the season that followed, but ultimately just couldn't. New offseason brought new hope, but it became obvious by mid-year that hope was unfounded.

Now, I'm happy to see it finally some to an end. Just wish it would have ended better.

Hopefully, the new beginning that's yet to come makes up for this lousy ending.

[FuzzyPanther]

To get to the sum of all my fears, and save yourself having to read all my petty whining, skip to the emphasized text at the bottom:

If you've done so, what was the tipping point?

I gave up on Fox during the previous off-season, primarily because the organization did. (Not re-upping or letting go of him, just letting him finish out, sans-support) Not much sense in wasting myself on the "I'm staying in love with you even though we're getting a divorce" type of masochism.

If you haven't, what's kept you in his corner?

Does Fox have flaws? Sure, all the coaches do. As far as fans, GM's, ownership goes, it's always about what you've done for me lately. There's rarely much loyalty in such a cut-throat industry as the NFL. You win or you'll be replaced. At least in the NFL, it's rarely a knife in the back. If the team isn't winning, you know it's coming. Fox has accomplished some amazing things. Some of the things his players and teams have done has had me screaming with joy. Through the years we won some games we shouldn't have. The flip side to that is, of course, some of the things his teams have done baffled me, and they lost games that should've never been close.

I know he's moving on, and that worries me, because at the least, he's the devil I know. The next guy who walks through the door to lead this team might be the answer for the next 10+ years, or he might bring us 2-3 disastrous years, and another new coach who may do the same, repeating a cycle of trying to find "the guy". Hell, I'll just spit it out: I'm afraid of becoming the Redskins. I hate them. I should have just said that and not all that other bullcrap I just typed. *sigh* I'll put a warning at the top I guess...

[Anybodyhome]

1. The game has passed him by.

2. No adjustments based on personnel, weather, defenses, offenses, game plans. You know, all those things the coaching staff is supposed to be doing from Monday thru Saturday for the upcoming opponent.

3. No consistency. I thought it was funny during the game Sunday when they threw up a graphic that said Fox had never had back-to-back losing seasons. In a game where there are no ties, only means the converse is true also- he's never had back-to-back winning seasons.

I was done with Fox after the playoff loss to Seattle in following the 2005 season. Before that game the Panthers had lost nearly every running back on the roster and Fox still went into that game thinking he was going to run it the Seahawks throat... with Nick Goings. That single game showed me that John Fox has no backup plan, has nothing to fall back onto. John Fox cannot adapt to the situation, cannot improvise and cannot think on his feet.

I simply don't think John Fox is the sharpest knife in the drawer and in Jake Delhomme he had a QB who couldn't match wits with him.

[MHS831]

OCs, replacing a bad Henney with Davidson

DCs, sticking with Turgo then replacing him with Meeks who apparently can't do the job per Zod's posts

Sticking with Foster while DWill languished on the bench.

"Oh, but he can't handle the blitz!"

Coach him up dumb ass.

Sticking with Jake when his mind followed his arm out the door.

Coaching passive aggresive, not to lose, never to dominate, 3 wins per 1/4 of the season is good, a punt is a good play, it is what it is.....

Been due to be gone for a long time.

He sucks at clock managment. He also challenges when it is stupid to do so.

[MHS831]

Cleveland might give him a job. If not, he goes back to Defensive Coordination

[beastson52]

I actually think Foxy knows exactly what's he's doing ( even though half the people on here don't see it) as a head coach, and for that I can respect em as a the head coach. By all means I'm not suggesting that a coaching change would not do this organization good but at the moment I could not think of a better proven coach that is available. I guess in the end I'm still a fan of his style and have a huntch that this season failure was not entirely his fault. He held his tounge ( for the most part) and did all he could to try and win. I just think we should as fans we should be careful what we wish for when it comes to making personnel decisions. We thought Matt Moore was the answer ( including me) and ran Jake outta town. I'd rather have a gunslinger playing to win than a pansie playing not to lose.

[rayzor]

2007 I was ready for a change. Didn't like how he handled the poor QB options. He could have done better. Didn't like how he handled the RB situation. From that season forward I think he struggled evaluating his own roster.

this was the turning point for me as well. during that season i was ready for him to be gone, although i had begun to see problems with the way the RBs were being used well before that...in stephen davis' last year.

in '07, though, is really where i had some problems with his ability to make adustments. he was too slow to make them and it appeared as though change was his true enemy, that it was something you only did if it was forced upon you.

i think this is also around the time that i saw his goal for the team was to win 3 out of 4 games. "but you need to set reasonable goals and 3 out of 4 games ends up being a 12-4 record!" that was the ceiling. the bar was set too low and i saw him as someone that wanted only to be a little better than average. i didn't see him as being someone that people would give 100% for 100% of the time or him requiring that from the players. do just enough to get a little ahead and hope for the best. i didn't see a killer instinct or a desire to put the other team away. i saw someone who would rather try to just hold off another team. while herm said, "you play to win the game" fox was saying "you play not to lose".

anyways, '07 was when my eyes were opened up and i began seeing more and more of why he was holding the team back instead of pushing the team forward.

[twylyght]

If you've done so, what was the tipping point?

If you haven't, what's kept you in his corner?

Rather than re-up what everyone else has iterated in this thread, I'll just summarize what I think the majority's beef has been with Fox's coaching style.

In a nutshell, when I think of great coaches, I think of coaches that get their people to play above their potential. However they do that is fine by me. Whether it be through gameplanning, matchups, in-game adjustments, etc, I am not inclined to care how they get it done.

The worst feeling for me is watching a team on the field that I KNOW is better than what is showing week-in and week-out. Like the franchise QB, that type of coach is a rarity. In my own generation, it can be argued that there have only been a precious few of those. Bellicheck and Parcells are locks in my mind. Walsh is another. Beyond that, I don't know that anyone else qualifies.... perhaps Peyton Manning in the future as I could easily see him making the jump when his playing days are done.

Is this kind of wish lofty? Absolutely... to the nth degree. Doesn't keep me from wishing that the talent I see on the field actually performing to expectations.

[ladypanther]

I was off the Foxy train long ago. Even the SB year...the team won several games at the last minute because they did not play to win earlier in the game. He is usually out coached. I believe this team has been under-coached for years. There has been some great talent on this team. Foxy is afraid of offense and does not know what to do with the QB position. This year is an exclamation point on that.

Foxy is a quality guy, but as a HC....just not good enough.

[The Saltman]

I gave up on fox after the season when Jake Delhomme stunk it up in the NFC title game against Seattle. We drafted D williams and didnt even think about getting another qb. Foxy kept to the same players that couldnt play. The loyalty to vet players that really werent as good as some of the players that were on the field is what turned me off to him.

[Mvp2014]

I was off the Foxy train long ago. Even the SB year...the team won several games at the last minute because they did not play to win earlier in the game. He is usually out coached. I believe this team has been under-coached for years. There has been some great talent on this team. Foxy is afraid of offense and does not know what to do with the QB position. This year is an exclamation point on that.

Foxy is a quality guy, but as a HC....just not good enough.

very accurate

[Happy Panther]

I still think he's a very good coach. It appears that all this came about because he wanted to be paid as an elite coach, and Richardson disagreed.

He was the highest paid coach in the league at one time and is still one of the highest paid

[Murph]

OCs, replacing a bad Henney with Davidson

DCs, sticking with Turgo then replacing him with Meeks who apparently can't do the job per Zod's posts

Sticking with Foster while DWill languished on the bench.

"Oh, but he can't handle the blitz!"

Coach him up dumb ass.

Sticking with Jake when his mind followed his arm out the door.

Coaching passive aggresive, not to lose, never to dominate, 3 wins per 1/4 of the season is good, a punt is a good play, it is what it is.....

Been due to be gone for a long time.

Yep. All happened in '06-'08 when I started questioning my hardcore loyalty to Fox. But sticking with Jake after the 8th and 9th games last season when it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that he was worthless and costing us games finally did it for me. The other 21 players on the field played well enough to make them a playoff team but Jake (and special teams) cost us the season. When Jake was cut Fox was adamant that he really believed keeping him in and letting him work through his issues was best for the team pissed me off to no end. Then the talk about how he didn't trust Moore because he didn't act like the type of football player Fox knows and trusts. Final nail in the coffin for me.

Oh and sticking with Danny Crossman out of loyalty to a friend year after year was another horrible mistake.

[Kevin Greene]

Yep. All happened in '06-'08 when I started questioning my hardcore loyalty to Fox. But sticking with Jake after the 8th and 9th games last season when it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that he was worthless and costing us games finally did it for me. The other 21 players on the field played well enough to make them a playoff team but Jake (and special teams) cost us the season. When Jake was cut Fox was adamant that he really believed keeping him in and letting him work through his issues was best for the team pissed me off to no end. Then the talk about how he didn't trust Moore because he didn't act like the type of football player Fox knows and trusts. Final nail in the coffin for me.

Oh and sticking with Danny Crossman out of loyalty to a friend year after year was another horrible mistake.

*Cringes at the name Danny Crossman*