something to feel good about in the offseason..."could be something special brewing in Carolina"

[HaricotVert]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

Then don't tune in.

It's really not a hard concept to understand, if your making your decision based on your own personal needs/feelings as opposed to what is best for the future of the franchise, then it's a you problem, not a Panthers problem.

When the season is already lost, every fan should be rooting for the same thing.  The team plays hard until the final whistle of the season and keeps improving as a team and individually, but in the end, we still come up short and lose games, and preferably because the other team beat us, not because we screwed up and found a way to lose due to our own fault.

Look at it this way...

If we are up 1 or 2 points with 3 seconds left in the game and the other team is lining up for a FG.  Beyond the joy of victory or the disappointment of defeat, what impact does the other team making or missing the FG have on our team the following season?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

Except where we draft and what teams we play due to our finish in the division.

The players and coaches on the team would have the exact same level of improvement and learnings about themselves individually and as a team whether the FG is made or missed.  The ONLY difference in the end is the record in the standings and if the win or loss number changes.

If you want to argue if making the playoffs to lose in the first round or just missing them is better or worse, that's totally fair and I can at least understand the other side of it.  But in what is already a lost season, if you're not hoping your team plays well but ends up losing, then you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.  You're hoping for a moment of happiness at the detriment of the franchise's future, and in turn, you're basically then happy for a moment to only set yourself up for future further disappointment.

You’re right about one thing

its not hard

 

i make my entertainment choices based on the things I enjoy. I enjoy NFL season game days where the Panthers win marginally more than days they don’t. We have family and friends over most game days and the party is much more fun when we notch a win  

 

sorry but I’m just not ever pulling for the team to win for a better position in the crap shoot that is the NFL draft

[jfra78]

13 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Nor would most Panthers fans. Making the playoffs is the goal of the regular season. But celebrating wins that do nothing but cost draft position at the end of lost seasons when you're already eliminated is kinda embarrassing. Like somehow you've found a way to turn an already had season into an even bigger spectacle of losing as now you've already lost on the goal of the regular season and now you're onto losing draft position.

I really don't care about that either I always want a win

[Pejorative Miscreant]

2 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

If we're still in the playoffs hunt, sure. Once we're mathematically eliminated or once it's such a longshot that it's beyond reasonable hope, fug it...

 

I understand this and understand the rationale behind it from a draft setup and agree that winning thes games when the team is eliminated from playoff contention doesn’t do a lot to change the culture.
 

That said, how do you think players and coaches would receive this message?  Does anyone that supports this line of thinking believe a team is gonna just say screw it we suck let’s just take December off (in some cases it would be October I know) so the organization can have a better draft?  How would this approach impact culture?

 

 

[tukafan21]

8 minutes ago, Pejorative Miscreant said:

I understand this and understand the rationale behind it from a draft setup and agree that winning thes games when the team is eliminated from playoff contention doesn’t do a lot to change the culture.
 

That said, how do you think players and coaches would receive this message?  Does anyone that supports this line of thinking believe a team is gonna just say screw it we suck let’s just take December off (in some cases it would be October I know) so the organization can have a better draft?  How would this approach impact culture?

 

 

JFC

Why is this concept SOOOOOOOOO hard for some fans to understand.

Fans wanting a team to fight hard, get better as players and a franchise, but end up losing games to help draft/schedule in the future......

IS NOT.........

Fans wanting the players/team to purposefully try and lose.

So all this talk about "players always try to win" or "trying to lose doesn't help the culture" blah blah blah is so badly missing the point that it's borderline scary.

[tukafan21]

39 minutes ago, jfra78 said:

This is exactly the same as saying if we make the playoffs I'd rather lose in the first round than lose in the conference championship game because of draft picks.  Like what are we even talking about here.

No, not it's not.

Because in your other scenario the team won 2 playoff games and played in the conference championship, that's so much better for the team than draft picks.  Teams don't luck into that scenario, if that happens, it means Bryce proved himself to be our QB of the future and we likely struck gold with guys like Scourton, Princely, and Ransom which helped turn around the defense into a top half of the league unit.

Again, that option isn't even on the table in this discussion here, because no poo, everyone here would take that option.

It's would you rather make the playoffs but lose in the first round or just miss the playoffs and get better draft picks AND an easier schedule the next year.

I'm literally not even sitting here saying "I'd rather lose and miss the playoffs than make it" as I"m explicitly saying the scenario I'm discussing involves missing the playoffs or losing in the first round.  

[tukafan21]

26 minutes ago, HaricotVert said:

You’re right about one thing

its not hard

 

i make my entertainment choices based on the things I enjoy. I enjoy NFL season game days where the Panthers win marginally more than days they don’t. We have family and friends over most game days and the party is much more fun when we notch a win  

 

sorry but I’m just not ever pulling for the team to win for a better position in the crap shoot that is the NFL draft

Sure, totally fair, but then you seem to be a fan who cares more about entertainment than winning championships, and I can't fault that.

But it's been 30 years, I don't care about just having fun in the regular season anymore, I want to win a fuging championship.

My two favorite teams that I live and die with are the Panthers and Arizona Basketball.  We've never won a SB of course, and I wasn't an Arizona fan growing up and unfortunately went out there for school just after our last Final Four.  If you don't count my new Wrexham fandom, my only championships as a fan are the Red Wings and that's been a LONG time.

I'm sick of falling short with my teams, I'm done caring about any regular season success with either, I want a SB and I want a Final Four, literally anything short of those at this point are failures in my mind.  

So for me, yea, I look at EVERYTHING with this team from the lens of "will this help us win a Super Bowl faster or not"

And if the answer is that it won't, then I can't get on board with it, sorry if that rubs people the wrong way, I want to win when it matters, not when it doesn't.

Edited 4 hours ago by tukafan21

[Pejorative Miscreant]

34 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

JFC

Why is this concept SOOOOOOOOO hard for some fans to understand.

Fans wanting a team to fight hard, get better as players and a franchise, but end up losing games to help draft/schedule in the future......

IS NOT.........

Fans wanting the players/team to purposefully try and lose.

So all this talk about "players always try to win" or "trying to lose doesn't help the culture" blah blah blah is so badly missing the point that it's borderline scary.

Ok. Got it now. I think the extra “O’s” and all caps are what help me see the light so thank you.  The concept is that you want them to try really hard but still lose if they are already mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.  And you are so passionate about it that you resent it when they win.  

When this happens are you elated when a player makes a miscue that helped seal the loss?  Like XL dropping that pass against the Eagles?  Do you guys come in here and participation trophy praise him for trying hard but dropping it and protecting a high draft pick?  

Thanks for clarifying but genuinely curious.

[tukafan21]

6 minutes ago, Pejorative Miscreant said:

Ok. Got it now. I think the extra “O’s” and all caps are what help me see the light so thank you.  The concept is that you want them to try really hard but still lose if they are already mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.  And you are so passionate about it that you resent it when they win.  

When this happens are you elated when a player makes a miscue that helped seal the loss?  Like XL dropping that pass against the Eagles?  Do you guys come in here and participation trophy praise him for trying hard but dropping it and protecting a high draft pick?  

Thanks for clarifying but genuinely curious.

No, I don't root for drops to be what loses a game, especially from a player who has/had drop issues, as that's not showing improvement.

And no, I don't resent it if they win, just as I don't "celebrate" if we lose either.  But I don't get upset if we lose because I know it's for the best for our future, just like I don't go running through the streets celebrating a meaningless December win that doesn't do anything other than hurt our draft stock in a lost season.

In a year like last year and this next year, where we've put considerable assets into the offense at the expense of our defense to be fixed later, something both fans and the team themselves know, as you can only add so many players in any given offseason.  Then I'm looking for us to click offensively, have everyone looking better than the year before and show growth.  

But then the side of our team we know is a weakness, to be the reason we lose in a high scoring game.  Give me Bryce going down and taking a 2 point lead with 2-3 minutes left in the game, but then our defense almost holding the other team from getting into scoring position and they end up needing a 55 yard FG to win the game and beat us.

That can happen while our young defensive players show tons of promise, but still have one or two too many holes and/or just inexperience that it costs us games in the end, but it's still a successful season of growth and improvement.

Or even better, just look great on both sides in a close game and end up getting totally screwed by the refs with a bad late call that hands them the game.

And again, those are the kinds of things I'm wanting to see happen once it's already a lost season.  

And I'm only saying I'd rather not make the playoffs when the alternate scenario is making but losing in the first round.

Because those are the scenarios where we improve as a team, get better draft picks, and an easier schedule the next year.  You then use the cap space and higher draft picks to fill the remaining defensive holes with impact players and you're then cooking with gas in that next season and have real potential.

[UnluckyforSome]

Just have to see how the off-season additions work out, what kind of impact rookies have, if there is a positive answer to the really, really big question at qb, or if we have just rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic. Could be an exciting season, either way.

 

[WhoKnows]

2 hours ago, jfra78 said:

I guarantee you non of the teams who got bounced in the first round give a damn that they fell a few draft spots

We haven’t had more than 7 wins in 7 full seasons. Of course even us “tankers” would have been happy with the playoffs and all of us said that in 2022 until Mike Evans beat us. Our problem is that we didn’t get the picks with trades that most bottom teams try to do so that they don’t get pick 9 and have to trade away the farm. A team like Houston desperately needed a QB and since they had pick 2, it cost the nothing extra to get Stroud which meant they could also trade up and get Will Anderson. That resulted in two playoff appearances in two years, two more than we’ve had in 7 years. We had to give away marquee picks and lose one of our best players because we almost got to the playoffs which launched our culture with 7 wins and 27 losses the past two years.

[jfra78]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

No, not it's not.

Because in your other scenario the team won 2 playoff games and played in the conference championship, that's so much better for the team than draft picks.  Teams don't luck into that scenario, if that happens, it means Bryce proved himself to be our QB of the future and we likely struck gold with guys like Scourton, Princely, and Ransom which helped turn around the defense into a top half of the league unit.

Again, that option isn't even on the table in this discussion here, because no poo, everyone here would take that option.

It's would you rather make the playoffs but lose in the first round or just miss the playoffs and get better draft picks AND an easier schedule the next year.

I'm literally not even sitting here saying "I'd rather lose and miss the playoffs than make it" as I"m explicitly saying the scenario I'm discussing involves missing the playoffs or losing in the first round.  

You said that you'd rather miss the playoffs if we can't win the superbowl, and getting to the championship game is not winning the Superbowl.  So its the same thing.  I much rather get a wildcard game and get bounced than watch some other team play that game.  Don't care about draft positioning

[HaricotVert]

Robert Isray announced he was moving the Colts and packed their stuff the same day. 
 

Enjoy the wins when they come.  

[pantherclaw]

8 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

And we went 5-12 last year while being nowhere near the playoffs 

You think going 8-9 while being in the playoff hunt until Week 17 or 18 and ending up just missing out wouldn't be considered growth this year?

You're acting like I'm saying we should be playing for the #1 pick and try to lose every game for it.  It's not even like I'm saying I want us going into Week 18 needing a win to make the playoffs and a loss keeps us out and thus I'm rooting against us that game.

I'm solely saying that I think making the playoffs only to lose in the first round would in the end, be less beneficial for us than if we were to just miss the playoffs, pick 5-7 spots earlier in the draft, and get the easier schedule that goes along with it.

In the NFL, every game is beneficial. 

You're arguing semantics.  

[raleigh-panther]

7 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

Just because all draft picks are a gamble doesn't mean you don't have a better chance at hitting on a better player the higher you're drafting.

It would literally be like someone saying, I'll give you 1 or 2 free spins on a slot machine, and you say you'll take the 1 because you're not likely to win anything anyways with 1 or 2, so why bother?

The Cowboys desperately wanted T-Mac, but because they were 4 picks behind us, they weren't able to get him.  If you told Cowboys fans that had they lost 2 more games last year in a lost season, that it would get them the player they wanted so badly, would they in retrospect go back and lose those games to get their guy?

95% of them would take that trade off in a heartbeat, and the others who wouldn't are the fans who would rather enjoy an extra win or two in a poo season to then set themselves up to be better for the next decade.

I also think the fans who argue against this thinking, get too caught up in the "well that means you're going to be rooting against us late in the season even if we still have a shot at the playoffs."

Which isn't true, it's saying if you're telling me right now we'd make the playoffs but lose in the first round, that I'd rather end up 8-9 or 9-8 and just miss the playoffs because in our opinion, the benefits that come along with that outweigh the benefit of the players getting 1 game of playoff experience.

They didn’t want him bad enough to move up and take him…did they…

….and their team has survived by picking up a veteran WR…whether that is good or bad is yet to be seen 

…just like no one knows how McMillian will do…the NFL is littered with failed high draft choices 

You seem to always forget players also have individual contract incentives.  They are not going to roll over for a franchise to have better draft position.  Nor would any player, free agent or drafted, want to come to a franchise that pulls them out of the lineup

nfl players have a short tenure.  They want that individual money…if the team is 0 and 17 or 17 and 0, they still have those individual monetary incentives