Belichick & Collins vs Gettleman & Norman

[ncfan]

35 minutes ago, Bartin said:

Gronk missed 2 games. Their starting OT, Vollmer, hasn't played all year. Their starting RB, Dion Lewis, hasn't played all year. Their starting OG, Tre Jackson, hasn't played all year. They had to use a 3rd string QB for 2 games because of an injury to Garropolo.

That's just as if not more significant than Bradberry missing 3 games, Oher missing 3 games, McClain missing a game, Butler missing a few games, Cam missing 1 game and Stewart missing a couple games.

Their OL is as bad as most has our secondary even with those guys.  Missing Jackson would be like us missing Remmers.  Oher gets flack around here but the dude isnt the worst, he was a 1st probowl alternate last year for a reason.  Brady is a big miss but again I said outside of QB.  Every backup QB in that system has always been Studs no matter who you put in going back to Cassell.  This isnt a coaching debate, Belicheck coaches a good system.  Dion Lewis had a good year last year isnt their Bell Cow RB which is Blount.

Us on the other hand.  first rounder Butler, 2nd rounder #1 corner, LT, Cam a game, Stewart.  Along with guys like Kalil and TD who have been nicked up and not 100% several games

[ncfan]

3 minutes ago, Bartin said:

Well I watched the games and PFF, the same people that graded him as the best coverage CB the second half of his rookie year that you've cited 5 times in this thread, graded him as their 73rd best CB out of 119 with a grade of 52.7 which is bad.

From the nickle postion

Again that 73rd was for the season.  when outside it was a huge difference.  again was a big discussion around here needing to play outside.  Wish i could go back and dig up the thread but there was a PFF ranking thread of him outside when Peanut went down and he was up among the leagues best

[heel31ok]

1 hour ago, Saca312 said:

Losing Norman didn't necessarily make us the worst secondary in the league. If you haven't noticed injuries plagued us back there, as well as rookie inexperience.

Now that Worley and Bradberry are going to be back, expect them to have progressed to an elevated state, and, dare I say, end the season with a top 10 secondary.

Um...yes it did... necessarily...

[TheSpecialJuan]

20 minutes ago, thomas96 said:

I don't see how the Collins move was possibly "excellent" in the big picture. Maybe it will turn out to not be bad but there's no way this will be worth losing their best defensive player for the rest of this year. If they got a 1st or 2nd? Hell yes that would be a good big picture move. But to get the exact same thing they'd get keeping him but just a year earlier? Not a great move for the big picture. Not bad aside from this year, but not particularly great.

Bill knows he's not re-signing Collins to a multi-year deal in the offseason. He's going to use that cap space and re-sign Hightower instead. But make no mistake, some team will give Collins a big deal and the Patriots will receive a compensatory 3rd round pick in 2018. So instead of waiting until 2018 why not just trade him now and get that 3rd rounder in this year's draft? 

It's really a brilliant piece of business.

[t96]

Just now, TheSpecialJuan said:

Bill knows he's not re-signing Collins to a multi-year deal in the offseason. He's going to use that cap space and re-sign Hightower instead. But make no mistake, some team will give Collins a big deal and the Patriots will receive a compensatory 3rd round pick in 2018. So instead of waiting until 2018 why not just trade him now and get that 3rd rounder in this year's draft? 

It's really a brilliant piece of business.

Umm, no it's not brilliant. He got the same pick a year earlier but lost his best defensive player (PFF ranked him the best 4-3 OLB in the entire league) for the rest of the season when he's trying to win a Super Bowl this year.

[TN05]

1 hour ago, JawnyBlaze said:

One ENORMOUS difference. Belichick will properly compensate for the loss of Collins.  Losing Collins doesn't turn the Patriots' LB corps into the worst in the league.  

Problem: this is the middle of the season. He can't do it this season. Gentleman at least gave us an offseason to try and do something.

[heel31ok]

We were behind at db before Norman left..

[TheSpecialJuan]

14 minutes ago, thomas96 said:

Umm, no it's not brilliant. He got the same pick a year earlier but lost his best defensive player (PFF ranked him the best 4-3 OLB in the entire league) for the rest of the season when he's trying to win a Super Bowl this year.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. But Bill is no fool, he believes Collins is replaceable and I happen to agree.

[CPantherKing]

Jamie Collins was never franchised. He was in the last year of his contract. He was told to sign or they trade him. Also, Belichick signed Shea McClellin in March, drafted Elandon Roberts in April, traded for Barkevious Mingo in August and traded for Kyle Van Noy 1 week ago. All this before trading Jamie Collins.

Gettleman never leveraged Josh Norman last year before the trade deadline. All he had to replace Norman was Bene, who he did not value highly and believe he made a mistake on drafting. He did not draft a CB in 2015. He did not sign young CB free agents in the off seasons of 2015. He franchised Norman and rescinded his tag. The ultimate GM rookie mistake to use a franchise tag and not follow through with it. He then left a huge gap for the Panthers to fill without any compensation.

Belichick leverages draft picks to build his roster. Gettleman throws away draft picks and dives in the bargain bin or signs a player off the street.

Gettleman has yet to leverage KK. What do you think Belichick would do if Norman or KK did not sign their extension before the trade deadline of their final season?

* Stop mentioning the 2014 season as a division championship success as it matters/compares to 2013 and 2015. 2014 was a losing season in a horrible division. A losing season is not made good by a division championship. They would have had to get to the conference championship and be competitive to wash that poo season away in a poo division. You can not say back to back winning season, so you use a division championship like it actually means anything. No one cares who won any of the divisions or made it to the playoffs. All people remember are conference and SB champs. The people who enjoy a division championship and not winning seasons are the same people who take pride in participation trophies.

[The_Rainmaker]

I'm really curious to hear how all the Gettleman haters feel about this.  Have seen a couple of them have threads then talk about the great Belichick.

 

Player A: Played some as a rookie looked alright tofor most of the season then benched, season 2 was benched and played in about as many games as he was inactive.  Season 3 was a backup but by midseason worked his way into the starting roll week 8 (midseason) and finished the season strong.  Season 4 last year on his contract produces all-pro season, said in interviews in the media throughout the season he wanted to be "Payed" and even mentioned a time or 2 the top of his position.

Player B: Quiet rookie season ended the season with a strong game in the playoffs, season 2 had a breakout year, season 3 had a probowl/all-pro year.

 

Player A is Norman Player B is Collins.

BOTH players never had a top level year until this last year. Norman's next to last year ended strong but didnt even start the first half of that season.  Collins next to last year started all the games and had a big year over 100 tackles and 4 forced fumbles.  Collins has also leads the NFL in forced fumbles the last 2-3 years.  Both players mentioned they wanted to be the top payed player at their position.  

Norman, Gettleman looked to Franchise him here atleast 1 more year but something behind the scenes between him and Normans agent happened that none of us know.  Gettleman released him and let him sign big deal top at his position with a team who just came off a playoff appearance.

Collins, Belicheck traded collins to arguably the worst sports franchise among all the major sports.  

Both teams recieved Comp 3rd round picks.

We know Belicheck is a winner but using that argument isnt even the best.  Vomsidering sonce Gettleman at the helm the panthers are the only franchise to win back to back division titles by going 3 for 3 also a superbowl appearance.

They have decent LB corp with Hightower, sadly our CB position wasn't strong as their LB corp?


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[CPantherKing]

1 hour ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

Bill knows he's not re-signing Collins to a multi-year deal in the offseason. He's going to use that cap space and re-sign Hightower instead. But make no mistake, some team will give Collins a big deal and the Patriots will receive a compensatory 3rd round pick in 2018. So instead of waiting until 2018 why not just trade him now and get that 3rd rounder in this year's draft? 

It's really a brilliant piece of business.

Exactly. Belichick knows what he is going to do a year ahead of time and he leverages the players to get value back for the future. Draft picks are capital to him and he accumulates them for 2 to 3 seasons out. He trades players left and right with draft picks to choose his roster. It also makes it known to the rest of the players how business is done if you want to be on a consistent competitor.

The wasted player value and draft picks while leaning on players who have been on the team 5+ years without any possible young replacements behind them is a major issue. The future of this team is in question. I am not looking forward to a team that is stocked with rookies, street free agents, and used up 35 year old vets.

 

[Cpt slay a ho]

Both are bad moves IMO, trading Collins mid season when he can help you win a Super Bowl. But the difference is Bill has multiple Super Bowl rings we have none so he can make moves like that




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[GoobyPls]

I think it's a bad move

 

Did you forget the fact that Belichick rented Revis and is very active in signing marquee free agents 

[NanuqoftheNorth]

I'm willing to give Gettleman a few more seasons before throwing him under the bus. Norman is just another data point for now.

How long has Belichick been running the show?  16 years, so I suspect he pretty much has things sorted the way he likes them up there in NE.  Anyone around that long should have their ducks in a row if they are capable of long term planning.

On the other hand Gettleman has been here for 3 years and has been doing damage control since the day he walked through the door.  Under less than ideal circumstances Gettleman has done pretty well.  I suspect, given a few more seasons under his leadership, the Panthers will be in a similar situation to what the Patriots have now.