four possibilities that could happen this sunday concerning kyle allen

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

You seem to have a predetermined set picture of reality yourself.

It's whatever. This argument has not been worth the time or effort anyways. 

Used to have respect for you as a poster on here, but if you're going to die on this hill that I'm downgrading Kyle for the notion that he's not better than Cam Newton, then there are bigger issues that need to be addressed, as that has never been the case.

If I said Kyle was better than Newton, would that have made my analysis objective? Because frankly that's a terrible take given what I've seen, but I mean apparently it's a wild and outlandish one on here and I'm coming in with an agenda for saying such.

At least I know now I shouldn't waste my time on this board again.

The only person trying to create a "hill to die on" here is you.

You're basically doing a lot of stretching, inferring, etc. and then getting upset at being challenged. Sorry dude, but just because you put a video clip and add your opinion of what happened in it doesn't make it unassailable fact.

Suggesting that Greg Olsen doesn't like Kyle Allen because of a clip where he threw up his hands, for example. If you've never seen Olsen get upset that he was wide open and Newton missed him, you haven't been watching too closely. Likewise, it ignores that Olsen has disputed people's suggestions that Allen wasn't helping win games.

Same thing with Turner. You took one comment and try to make it something it wasn't, but ignored actual words where Turner said Allen does a lot of  things very well, adding that if they found things he didn't do well, they limit them. Put that together with the story later on that not only did they not limit the offense with Allen playing, they actually expanded some parts of it.

Your "hill to die on" here is that Newton can't possibly lose his job to Allen because he's a better player. Maybe so, but the problem id it's a point you make in a complete vacuum, ignoring every factor that works against you. And trust me, there are plenty.

If that offends you, sorry but it's the truth.

[Mr. Scot]

I should add, if you want a little perspective on my "predetermined Kyle Allen fandom", go back about six weeks.

What you'll find is me being one of the people pissed off that we didn't sign an experienced backup like Josh McCown instead of rolling the dice on an undrafted guy with one start that wasn't even valid because it was a glorified preseason game. Some of the better highlights include me going back and forth with Ellis because he felt a lot more confident in Allen than I did.

So yeah, predetermined my ass. I'm where I am now because I lost a debate.

[jtm]

This is one of the more pointless threads I’ve read in a while and this place has a lot of pointless threads 

[Captain Obvious]

Ya'll, louis riddick sucks. If he was any good he would be employed on a nfl team 

[Ivan The Awesome]

18 hours ago, Saca312 said:

4.) kyle allen unlocks his inner peyton manning and has the game of his career, actively creating plays and clear primary factor for winning

If this happens, get ready for a really wild ride. The trade deadline around the Corner(Oct 29), his performance, as you describe it, would garner a lot of interest from QB need teams. If some team throws a 2nd or higher for him.. I don't know what Hurney will do. I am not saying I am an advocate for trading Allen. I am speculating what could happen....so please don't start trying to skew my words. You know who you are...(eyeroll). 

 

The possibilities would open up more if scenario #4 happens. The League will notice. So I don't see it as easy as you suggest, at least not in that particular scenario. 

[Saca312]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

You're basically doing a lot of stretching, inferring, etc. and then getting upset at being challenged. Sorry dude, but just because you put a video clip and add your opinion of what happened in it doesn't make it unassailable fact.

I mean I feel I've made perfectly reasonable points to back up my claims.

Meanwhile, you've accused me of simply peddling to twitter analysts and discrediting my analysis because I find a few things negative about Allen's play.

And I never said Olsen hates Allen. I showed off two examples of where Kyle Allen's decision making could've been better and used Olsen's reaction as part of the justification. I could easily go ahead and open up other plays where I can break down the play concept and show why he should have gone for another read in that scenario, but I chose to support my claims with what the players did on field. I said that it's likely Olsen would prefer Newton gun to head, but to suggest that means he hates Allen is also not true, nor what I said at all.

My primary gripe is you demeaning my work as if it were agenda based, when the reality is it really wasn't. I made a fair assessment of Allen's play and credited him with showing improvement and good traits. I'm skeptical of him being a Cam replacement as of this moment and that's really what I've only said. I would like to see more evidence of him continuing to improve in the areas he needs to and show off a few elite games, which he does have potential to do based on talent alone. How and when he reaches it is up to question.

I'm not ignoring the possibility Kyle will ball out and continue to do so, as he's shown potential. Nor am I ignoring the possibility if he continues with high level play and improvement, he'll be a justified replacement of Cam.

You're making it out as if I'm clearly against Kyle and overrated Cam Newton instead. I really haven't been. Then when you attack my ability to evaluate film, that's where I've drawn the line, because you're cherry picking my analysis as if I've really tried demeaning Kyle Allen when I haven't.

[Saca312]

1 hour ago, Ivan The Awesome said:

If this happens, get ready for a really wild ride. The trade deadline around the Corner(Oct 29), his performance, as you describe it, would garner a lot of interest from QB need teams. If some team throws a 2nd or higher for him.. I don't know what Hurney will do. I am not saying I am an advocate for trading Allen. I am speculating what could happen....so please don't start trying to skew my words. You know who you are...(eyeroll). 

 

The possibilities would open up more if scenario #4 happens. The League will notice. So I don't see it as easy as you suggest, at least not in that particular scenario. 

Fair enough. I guess I should give more credit and explain that a bit more.

I would hope that means that Kyle Allen continues that performance and isn't a one game wonder. Too many QBs have a stroke of luck for one game looking like the second coming of Dan Marino then crash down the next games. If he continues a high level of play two games in a row, that's when I'd be comfortable to concede the idea he has a legitimate shot at retaining the starting position.

I think he's had 0 terrible games, 2 underwhelming games, 2 decent games, and 0 outstanding games thus far this season. That's why I'm not particularly declarative in defining Allen as a sure fire starter just yet. Sure, you have a 4-0 record. Yet my skepticism rises when I wonder if it really was Allen impacting those wins, or in fact the high rate of turnovers from our defense and CMC's play that's elevated him.

As everyone's been saying, no one really knows what's going to happen until the game is played. I hope Allen continues on improving his game and shows up against his first real test. 

[Ivan The Awesome]

4 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

Fair enough. I guess I should give more credit and explain that a bit more.

I would hope that means that Kyle Allen continues that performance and isn't a one game wonder. Too many QBs have a stroke of luck for one game looking like the second coming of Dan Marino then crash down the next games. If he continues a high level of play two games in a row, that's when I'd be comfortable to concede the idea he has a legitimate shot at retaining the starting position.

I think he's had 0 terrible games, 2 underwhelming games, 2 decent games, and 0 outstanding games thus far this season. That's why I'm not particularly declarative in defining Allen as a sure fire starter just yet. Sure, you have a 4-0 record. Yet my skepticism rises when I wonder if it really was Allen impacting those wins, or in fact the high rate of turnovers from our defense and CMC's play that's elevated him.

As everyone's been saying, no one really knows what's going to happen until the game is played. I hope Allen continues on improving his game and shows up against his first real test. 

Personally I wouldn't want to get rid of him simply because if he's growing this much and is this young, I don't see the logic behind getting rid of a back up that is capable of starting in your offense and actually making it work. To me that's more valuable than the picks that could potentially be thrown at you. 

1. If Cam goes down again, you don't miss a beat. Kyle comes in and that's that.

2. If Cam starts to stink it up. Sorry, but there's a guy capable of taking over and changing the game. 

 

if they start going on a losing streak with either QB. That's when i'm not sure what will happen. lol. 

[Mr. Scot]

34 minutes ago, Saca312 said:

I mean I feel I've made perfectly reasonable points to back up my claims.

Meanwhile, you've accused me of simply peddling to twitter analysts and discrediting my analysis because I find a few things negative about Allen's play.

And I never said Olsen hates Allen. I showed off two examples of where Kyle Allen's decision making could've been better and used Olsen's reaction as part of the justification. I could easily go ahead and open up other plays where I can break down the play concept and show why he should have gone for another read in that scenario, but I chose to support my claims with what the players did on field. I said that it's likely Olsen would prefer Newton gun to head, but to suggest that means he hates Allen is also not true, nor what I said at all.

My primary gripe is you demeaning my work as if it were agenda based, when the reality is it really wasn't. I made a fair assessment of Allen's play and credited him with showing improvement and good traits. I'm skeptical of him being a Cam replacement as of this moment and that's really what I've only said. I would like to see more evidence of him continuing to improve in the areas he needs to and show off a few elite games, which he does have potential to do based on talent alone. How and when he reaches it is up to question.

I'm not ignoring the possibility Kyle will ball out and continue to do so, as he's shown potential. Nor am I ignoring the possibility if he continues with high level play and improvement, he'll be a justified replacement of Cam.

You're making it out as if I'm clearly against Kyle and overrated Cam Newton instead. I really haven't been. Then when you attack my ability to evaluate film, that's where I've drawn the line, because you're cherry picking my analysis as if I've really tried demeaning Kyle Allen when I haven't.

You posted this thread specifically to say that no matter what happens, even if (in your words) "Kyle Allen finds his inner Peyton Manning", Cam Newton will be named the starter again.

It's not a reasonable take. In fact, it's a biased one.

Newton may indeed return as a starter (I've said that I believe he will, though not for a few more games) but your suggestion that it can't possibly be any other way is just out of touch with reality.

[Saca312]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

your suggestion that it can't possibly be any other way is just out of touch with reality.

I mean in a one game sample size of a peyton manning game, I'm still skeptical.

Now we continue a high level game with room for realistic regression into the next week, imo that's when it's a question I'd be comfortable asking, as that's another game against a solid team he's performed well in.

[ellis]

You want to continue to mold and groom this kid. Not as the starter for the short term, but as your security blanket for the franchise quarterback who has missed considerable time the over the last two years. 

Picking up wins along the way is just an absolute bonus on top of all of it. The fact that the offense has held it together without Newton is a testament to EVERYONE: Ron, CMC, OL, Matsko, Norv, Scott, Kyle. Punt coverage. And that defense. My goodness. 

The Cam v Kyle debate is such a foolish one, custom-made for hot take factories which lack intellectual depth. The team is winning, the team may have found a great backup plan for Cam for the next few years, and they now know they can win a string of games in this league without QB1. That’s called value. 

That’s a new concept in the Rivera/Newton era. And it should only be seen as a positive. Cam Newton fans need not feel threatened by this. Unfortunately, many fans have allowed some in the media to alter their perspective on what is a overwhelmingly positive development stacked against the team’s situation after week two. 

[Mr. Scot]

34 minutes ago, ellis said:

You want to continue to mold and groom this kid. Not as the starter for the short term, but as your security blanket for the franchise quarterback who has missed considerable time the over the last two years. 

Picking up wins along the way is just an absolute bonus on top of all of it. The fact that the offense has held it together without Newton is a testament to EVERYONE: Ron, CMC, OL, Matsko, Norv, Scott, Kyle. Punt coverage. And that defense. My goodness. 

The Cam v Kyle debate is such a foolish one, custom-made for hot take factories which lack intellectual depth. The team is winning, the team may have found a great backup plan for Cam for the next few years, and they now know they can win a string of games in this league without QB1. That’s called value. 

That’s a new concept in the Rivera/Newton era. And it should only be seen as a positive. Cam Newton fans need not feel threatened by this. Unfortunately, many fans have allowed some in the media to alter their perspective on what is a overwhelmingly positive development stacked against the team’s situation after week two. 

I can agree with a lot of that, but with one major exception.

We don't actually know that Newton has a "next few years".

We truly don't even know for certain that he has a next year.

If he does, cool, but it's not guaranteed.

Depending on how this year plays out, Newton could decide to retire, the team could decide to move on (with Allen or with someone else), heck, Newton could decide he wants a change of scenery.

Some of those options might be more or less likely than others, but none of them is impossible.

You have to be ready for all scenarios.

As always of course, the ultimate answer is "as long as we win"...

[trueblade]

7 hours ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

 

And as a bonus, option 6

KA gets knocked out of the game on the 1st drive, Grier comes in and drops 400 yards and 6 TDs and we start the QB controversy all over again.

[Dragoon11]

12 hours ago, Saca312 said:

Norv Turner's comments from going against the Jaguars here. Starts at 6:00

https://www.panthers.com/video/norv-turner-addresses-jaguars-pass-rush-offensive-creativity

Argues Ron Rivera's longevity in the NFL is helped "When you have an elite QB like Cam Newton." Irony is this wasn't even a question on Cam but thoughts on Ron Rivera's potential franchise win record, so that should speak volumes of how highly Norv thinks of Cam.

Olsen will say vanilla comments in general, but his reaction on the field with some of Allen's decisions shows he favors Cam coming back. I haven't seen him showing that kind of reaction with any of Cam's decision making ever, and I've seen that multiple times with Allen.

You're right; we don't know what will ultimately happen. Whether it will be the right or wrong decision remains to be seen.

In all fairness, you can't speculate on why Olsen is reacting the way he is to Allen on the field. I've seen some of the reactions that you're talking about, but there's no way anyone can say it's because he favors Cam coming back more. You could just as easily say that Olsen is extra vocal with him because he sees more potential in him and sees that he is very close to having that "it factor". Olsen also knows that he doesn't have a lot of years left and that if he is to ever win a Super Bowl then the time is NOW. Maybe he's really surprised at just how well Allen is doing and realizes that, "hey, this actually COULD happen with this kid", so a little extra motivation could/might mold him faster..... Also, maybe Olsen is a little more greedy than we all though and just wants the damn ball, which is ok by the way. After his recent injuries maybe he just wants to see that he still can make the big plays when needed, who knows. You know, maybe Olsen is not very vocal towards Cam on the field because Cam doesn't tolerate criticism very well, it is possible. Bottom line is: There is no way you can say that Olsen favors Cam coming back over Allen at this point based on Olsens passion and reactions towards Allen on the field. People will always act differently to different people based on their individual personalities and how they get along.