Who to blame, coach or GM?

[Raleigh PF]

Was listening to a radio show and one of the commentators had an interesting take any time things don't work out for a team, no matter what sport. If you can't figure out if you should blame the coach or the GM, ask yourself this question: how many players from this team would be definite starters on other teams? If the answer is only a couple of players, then the GM is to blame. If the answer is several players, then it's the coach.

Who did the Panther's have this year that would be starters on other teams?

CMC, Olsen, DJ Moore, Samuel, Turner and Moton for sure would have jobs on offense, for just about any roster. You might be able to include Wright and Thomas, as well. 

Keuchly, Thompson, Bradberry, Burns and Addison would certainly be starters for most defenses around the league. 

I didn't count injuries, but as much as people are down on KK, he and Cam would certainly qualify. 

Jackson has talent, but I would say he has suffered from a lack of quality coaching. I'd say there is talent available along the OLine, as well, but again, coaching has been an issue. NONE of the linemen have markedly improved over the last couple of years. 

Of all of those, Cam, CMC and Keuchly are elite and, quite probably, generational talents. 

I believe the Panthers made the right move.

[raz]

samuel wouldn't be starting for most teams, neither would turner.  i don't think moton would be either.  burns and addison i doubt it.  burns can't play the run.   but overall point taken

[Mr. Scot]

Coach and GM build the team together. The smart thing to do is evaluate them as a combo.

But if you need to separate them, trying to go player by player is a highly subjective exercise. Here's a better question.

Which one wins without the other one?

You're not always in a position to know that, but in our case, we can.

Ron Rivera succeeded with one GM but failed with the other.

Marty Hurney failed with two different head coaches, and spectacularly failed with Rivera. They were a terrible combination because they had too many similar weaknesses.

Rivera is getting another chance. Gettleman got another chance.

Does anybody really believe Marty's going to get another chance anywhere but here?

[thefuzz]

Fans have a tendency of overrating their own players.

Players on this team that would 100% start on all of the playoff teams:  CMC, Luke.

Players that would start on most of the playoff teams:  Moore, McCoy, Shaq, Bradberry.

Players that could start for a couple of the playoff teams:  Turner, Moton, Burns, Addison.

[Moo Daeng]

How many ways can the same debate be phrased?

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, Moo Daeng said:

How many ways can the same debate be phrased?

It's a simple question, I think I heard it phrased this way on NFL network on Sirius XM this week.  Kind of fun to think about really.

[trueblade]

4 minutes ago, Moo Daeng said:

How many ways can the same debate be phrased?

More like "how can I frame the debate to most heavily favor my own position." 

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, thefuzz said:

It's a simple question, I think I heard it phrased this way on NFL network on Sirius XM this week.  Kind of fun to think about really.

I'm some cases I don't think it's the debate itself.

Pretty sure we've got some folks on here who want to rationalize. Basically, since we seem to be stuck with Marty for at least a little bit longer, they need to find a way to convince themselves he's better than his record makes him look.

(positive thinking and all that...)

The problem of course is that reality is objective. It doesn't matter how well you convince yourself he's not that bad if, in reality, he actually is.

And yeah, he is.

[Toomers]

5 minutes ago, trueblade said:

More like "how can I frame the debate to most heavily favor my own position." 

 Hammer meet nail.

[MHS831]

2 hours ago, raz said:

samuel wouldn't be starting for most teams, neither would turner.  i don't think moton would be either.  burns and addison i doubt it.  burns can't play the run.   but overall point taken

That is sticking your neck out-

Thomas, No.

Samuel is a misused weapon here. (Coaching?  What options did Marty give RR?)

Burns did not start here.

Addision?  A 10 sack guy year in and year out.  I think he is a starter.

Moton?  There are better players, but I still think he belongs at G---gonna make some people mad, but He would beast at G.

Turner is a huge disappointment lately.

The OL is five guys singing from the same sheet music.  When that breaks down, they all look bad.  Blame Paradis for that, along with his suckage vs. any NT in front of him ever.

[45catfan]

As Mr. Scot said, normally front office structures have both HC and GM making roster decisions.  In many instances that's why when an club makes a change in their football operations, both HC and GM are let go.  It's usually a collaborative effort and therefore, a collaborative failure.

If you look at that list of players, imagine how many more could have potentially been added if Marty can just draft solidly after round one?  

[Moo Daeng]

3 hours ago, raz said:

samuel wouldn't be starting for most teams, neither would turner.  i don't think moton would be either.  burns and addison i doubt it.  burns can't play the run.   but overall point taken

Turner and Moton should be starting for mast teams 

[Shotgun]

The GM is the coaches boss, so if the coach sucks it's on the GM.

[Mr. Scot]

3 hours ago, Raleigh PF said:

CMC, Olsen, DJ Moore, Samuel, Turner and Moton for sure would have jobs on offense, for just about any roster. You might be able to include Wright and Thomas, as well. 

Keuchly, Thompson, Bradberry, Burns and Addison would certainly be starters for most defenses around the league. 

I didn't count injuries, but as much as people are down on KK, he and Cam would certainly qualify. 

Jackson has talent, but I would say he has suffered from a lack of quality coaching. I'd say there is talent available along the OLine, as well, but again, coaching has been an issue. NONE of the linemen have markedly improved over the last couple of years. 

Of all of those, Cam, CMC and Keuchly are elite and, quite probably, generational talents. 

I believe the Panthers made the right move.

There's a pretty major flaw in your argument here.

You're using players that came from two different GM's to evaluate the performance of one GM.

One of many reasons why if you want to judge realistically, you have to look at the whole roster, not just cherry pick the best or worst players.