Vernon Butler Should Be Resigned

[45catfan]

4 minutes ago, SetfreexX said:

I didn't say ''team friendly'' I said reasonable. Giving Butler a reasonable 2-3 year deal goes along with re-tooling, but KK, FA, and 2 picks leads to absolutely NO DEPTH. 

Even IF we select a Brown or Kinalw, we're not tanking, look at the moves the team is making, it all points to Cam at QB, you can rebuild and compete at the same time. I can't see butler getting more than 5-6 M annually, there just isn't enough out there about him for the open market. That is a 1/4 of what we pay KK, and signs and the dead money falling off would lead me to believe we move on from KK after this year when we can save 10M. 

Typically we keep four actual DTs on 53-man roster while also having a DE that can play inside on passing downs. This would be more than adequate.  Bulter is not a cog that will ultimately make or break the interior DL.  That said, I think we let Butler walk, let some other team pay him and get the comp pick next April which will be the key draft for the long-term future.  Freeing up cap space and accumulating as many picks as possible is the key to creating success.

[rippadonn]

I may be wrong but Butler seemed to get better when McCoy got here. I saw a big improvement in his play after that. Maybe the veteran helped his preparation or technique. Not sure if it's the contract year or that he is finally strong enough after NFL lifting but a light went off. If we can keep that light on our 1st rounder may be a keeper.

[BrianS]

It all comes down to $$.  Is there a price where it makes sense to keep VB?  Sure, of course there is.  The question becomes whether our opinion of his value is at all equivalent to his agents opinion of his value.  Is he worth $10 million per year?  I don't think so.  I'd give him 4 years at $30 million:  4 per season salary, 1 per season in easily achievable bonuses and 10 up front.

[rippadonn]

Regardless of what anybody thinks or says, these are professional football teams, the good franchises don't relish losing. We've already lost enough and got a high pick in THIS draft. Get a star or two and some role players and keep it moving.

Coach Rhule himself said there is a potential advantage in having systems the NFL hasn't had a chance to game plan against. He's a coach. This is football. He's not hired to tank. Just the opposite. Stop the tanking foolishness. Willingly crashing your franchise into the ground for whimsy is not an option. Put your big boy pants on and KEEP POUNDING.

[45catfan]

4 minutes ago, SetfreexX said:

Meh, I don't know, I have seen Rivera stifle young legit talent for years, by playing vets past their time as far as snap % 

• Silatolu over Norwell
• Florence over Norman 
• Addision & Irvin while we feature Burns at Gunner
• Davis over Shaq
• Smith & Funchess over Moore & Samuel
• Stewart over CMC
• Star, and KK, then add in Poe, and GMC over Butler

I can't claim to ''know'' anything, but we all saw as fans, the better performance of these young guys once injury, or a guy moving on cast them into the line-up, so while I'm not naive enough to say it wasn't a financial motivator at play, I also am not foolish enough to know RR held young players back and favored veterans as he held on in my opinion to an ''old school'' mentality regarding snap%. 

I think the 5th year option for Butler was 1) production, but you can't produce w/o snaps, and 2) cap cost, that is a lot of cap, and I think the team saw the situation this off-season and hedged the bet that they could re-sign him for less than the option. Now he may choose to move on but in that scenario you don't commit yourself to that money. 

I'm not against FA, or drafting DT's, I think most are simply saying he's not going to command top tier, and probably not even middle tier on the market. Even still it remains to be seen, as team with a ton of cap may make a large bida, I just have a hard time seeing it. 

Funchess got $13M from the Colts.  Who saw that coming?  There's always that one team flush with cap space that overpays a good, but not great FA, thinking they can max out their potential by throwing big bucks their way.  Many times they end up overpaying a guy who was no more than a good player who had already reached their ceiling...there was no 'next level play' to be developed.

I agree that Ron stifled young talent, but based off some of the young talent given to him, it's understandable why.  Gaulden was a Hurney pick, period.  Bust from the word go.  While people were banging the table for Will Grier after Allen's fortune's soured, we saw why Ron kept Will on the bench.  It goes both ways.  Yes Ron favored veteran players, but likewise, some young players need to develop from a depth position on the roster.

[WarHeel]

1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

In a rebuild, everything is an option.  The dude was absent for all but one year, the 'money' year and will use those stats to lure some sucker team into a big payday.  I also remember the reason he got so pissed in the Colts game is a guard put his fat a$$ on roller skates backing him up about seven yards beyond the line of scrimmage and then planting him into the turf.

 

Believe me, I’m no Butler apologist. I’d rather see him gone than not as he’s virtually done nothing outside rack up a few numbers last year and block a FG or two in his rookie season. I just hope we can find someone to give us production at the DT position as we are looking disgustingly thin. 

[45catfan]

10 minutes ago, WarHeel said:

Believe me, I’m no Butler apologist. I’d rather see him gone than not as he’s virtually done nothing outside rack up a few numbers last year and block a FG or two in his rookie season. I just hope we can find someone to give us production at the DT position as we are looking disgustingly thin. 

I'm not saying we don't fill his void if he leaves, I'm just saying it can be done cheaper and probably for similar career production.  My point is whether it's here or elsewhere, I seriously doubt Butler can/will replicate last year's production going off his body of work prior to then. Similar results can be found cheaper and with less years in case it is just a transition FA player during the rebuild.  

[MountaineerChemist10]

I'd be fine with it. Only with a one-year prove it contract though.

[TheSpecialJuan]

He's lazy and unmotivated, not the type of guy Rhule would like. A major liability in the run game, teams constantly double team him and run right at him. 

[SetfreexX]

11 minutes ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

He's lazy and unmotivated, not the type of guy Rhule would like. A major liability in the run game, teams constantly double team him and run right at him. 

If he's being doubled someone should be free to make a play...or win a 1v1. 

[rippadonn]

6 minutes ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

He's lazy and unmotivated, not the type of guy Rhule would like. A major liability in the run game, teams constantly double team him and run right at him. 

That's a good thing. If that's the case he's got some respect.

[SetfreexX]

3 minutes ago, rippadonn said:

That's a good thing. If that's the case he's got some respect.

Butler is not a little dude, he was 2nd to Poe in size essentially, but has 3-tech athleticism - 6'4'' / 325 lbs -- I think a lot are married to the lack of production as a 1st round choice, and I think it's more a product of being behind:

Star - 1st

KK - 2nd, and on a large contract

Poe - 1st, and on a large contract

GMC - 1st and on a large contract

No matter what season, he always had either a large contract, or a well establish player ahead of him on the DC. All of those guys are Pro-Bowl / All-Pro talents in regards to their resumes. I don't think it's a mystery why his production went up / exceeded that of GMC's with an increase in playing time. 

The guy is 25, and checks the boxes athletically for his size, and finally has a season's worth of tape, I think it would be short sited to move on IF the price is reasonable. It seems we are going to stay multiple, and if that is the case you need a guy that can play inside / out in a 3-4 or 4-3. He can do that. 

KK / FA / 2 rookies, is not enough depth to go into the season with - that's 4 guys. 

For a 3-4 DL you need -- 4 DE's / 2 IDL aka NT's

KK / Poe / GMC -- depth was Love, Butler, and Obada <<<< we dedicated 6 spots to the DL right out the gate, you can't anticipate any less, and in a 4-3 it's usually 4 IDL (2 NT's, 2 3 T's -- In the past is was Star / Love as the NT's, Short / Butler as the 3 T's) and 4 DE's. At DE Addison / Peppers / Horton / Haynes was the depth, with some other names that were mixed in that 4th spot. 

So this dream we can get away with KK, FA, and 2 rookies isn't realistic at all. We literally have 1 DL on the roster we can anticipate having -- and that is KK, Obada is under contract, but he's not a traditional 3-4 DE, he's a true 4-3 DE, he's a little out of place given the current / past scheme, but his athleticism and size still allowed him to compete. I imagine he'll be around again. 

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

I do not see Butler staying, and I do not see paying him more than $5-6m. 

I think some team will offer a bit more.   6 sacks in 40% of the snaps is marketable.

Agree. Someone is going to drastically overpay him and get burned.

[shaq]

3 hours ago, jfra78 said:

I'm not exactly sure how comp picks work, but wouldn't re-signing him keep us from getting one.  Other than that, If we can get him cheap then yea.  

No resigning your own players does not affect comp picks.