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After today, everyone should understand you need a QB

AU-panther

By AU-panther,
in Carolina Panthers

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mav1234 Grand Master

mav1234

Posted
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Darnold had terrible decision making when he had time. He has trouble reading defenses. Maybe if he had more time to do it he could get better at it but I doubt it.  Our OL was one of the worst in the league in pass block win rate. The idea that any of our QBs had tons of time is wild.  

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

In college Bridgewater was deemed more elusive than he is today.  While his arm isn't as strong as Willis', Bridgewater was able to pass it extremely proficiently against FBS schools.  Willis dominated crap teams on par with Liberty, but looked average at best when playing FBS teams.

Yeah Willis is the opposite of Teddy. Raw potential with a high ceiling vs a game manger with a low floor. Teddy is more like Mac Jones. I think of Willis as a smaller Trey Lance. 

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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6 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

Darnold had terrible decision making when he had time. He has trouble reading defenses. Maybe if he had more time to do it he could get better at it but I doubt it.  Our OL was one of the worst in the league in pass block win rate. The idea that any of our QBs had tons of time is wild.  

Exactly. Bad decision maker with a bad OL is a terrible combination. Luckily we locked in that fifth year…..

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Icege Grand Master

Icege

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1 hour ago, AU-panther said:

What is easier to find?  A franchise QB or an above average O-line.  It's the O-line and it's not even close. 

That is my only point, if you think you have the opportunity to draft a QB that you feel good about you take it.  It's easier to fix an O-line on demand then finding an elite QB.  I'm not saying the class has that guy for sure, but my only point is you can fix the O-line all you want and it doesn't change the fact sooner or later you have to find a good QB.  If anythign you might waste years of the good o-line not having a QB.  Look at the browns all of those years, they had one of the best LTs of all time and he was wasted because they could never find a QB.

I'm all for drafting O-line, we should have done it while we had a QB.

Do you feel better about rebooting the QB position with $29m in cap space?  You can fix this line without spending a 1st round pick.  

It's easier to find 5 players than it is 1? I cannot agree on that at all, and regarding the Browns comment you're only strengthening my point for me. The Browns swung (and missed) on the following QBs in the draft:

  • Brady Quinn (2007 / Round: 1 / Pick: 22)
  • Colt McCoy (2010 / Round: 3 / Pick: 85)
  • Brandon Weeden (2012 / Round: 1 / Pick: 22)
  • Johnny Manziel (2014 / Round: 1 / Pick: 22)
  • Connor Shaw (2014 / UDFA)

If we're talking about avg QBs w/ above avg OLs... where are the avg QBs on that list? They're all dumpster fires. Just like how having a great QB with a dumpster fire OL doesn't lead to sustained success.

I felt better rebooting the QB position with the original plan where we would have freed up $21M in cap space by cutting Bridgewater rather than committing $19M of it to Darnold. Instead, they cycled the position as suggested and now we're left with the guy that went #3 just a few years ago while we pick #6 now.

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

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16 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Yeah Willis is the opposite of Teddy. Raw potential with a high ceiling vs a game manger with a low floor. Teddy is more like Mac Jones. I think of Willis as a smaller Trey Lance. 

Eh, Teddy was more of a pure passer. Willis is more of a duel threat, rawer than Teddy in the passing game.  If I has a comparison, Willis is more like mini-Cam Newton, but his slight frame will NOT take that abuse in the NFL. Heck, even Cam's massive frame eventually wore down.

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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Just now, 45catfan said:

Eh, Teddy was more of a pure passer. Willis is more of a duel threat, rawer than Teddy in the passing game.  If I has a comparison, Willis is more like mini-Cam Newton, but his slight frame will NOT take that abuse in the NFL. Heck, even Cam's massive frame eventually wore down.

A pure passer that can’t throw a deep ball. That’s a game manager and it’s what he is. He makes a solid backup though. Willis doesn’t share much in common with Teddy. He has to run a lot at Liberty because their OL was bad, similar to Howell this past year. Willis might have the best arm in this class. He needs a good coach though (something we don’t have). If he goes to somewhere like the Saints and sits for a while we will be screwed.  I’ve heard Strong has a solid arm too, but I haven’t seen enough tape on him. 

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AU-panther Mentor

AU-panther

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36 minutes ago, Icege said:

It's easier to find 5 players than it is 1? I cannot agree on that at all, and regarding the Browns comment you're only strengthening my point for me. The Browns swung (and missed) on the following QBs in the draft:

  • Brady Quinn (2007 / Round: 1 / Pick: 22)
  • Colt McCoy (2010 / Round: 3 / Pick: 85)
  • Brandon Weeden (2012 / Round: 1 / Pick: 22)
  • Johnny Manziel (2014 / Round: 1 / Pick: 22)
  • Connor Shaw (2014 / UDFA)

If we're talking about avg QBs w/ above avg OLs... where are the avg QBs on that list? They're all dumpster fires. Just like how having a great QB with a dumpster fire OL doesn't lead to sustained success.

I felt better rebooting the QB position with the original plan where we would have freed up $21M in cap space by cutting Bridgewater rather than committing $19M of it to Darnold. Instead, they cycled the position as suggested and now we're left with the guy that went #3 just a few years ago while we pick #6 now.

The browns were not bad because they kept picking QBs, there were bad because they were bad at picking at QBs. 
Also you don’t need 5 great lineman, hardly any team has that.  1-2 good ones, 1-2 average, 1-2 bad ones and you can have an above average line.

All of that is easier to find then a franchise QB. 

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Icege Grand Master

Icege

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1 minute ago, AU-panther said:

The browns were not bad because they kept picking QBs, there were bad because they were bad at picking at QBs. 
Also you don’t need 5 great lineman, hardly any team has that.  1-2 good ones, 1-2 average, 1-2 bad ones and you can have an above average line.

All of that is easier to find then a franchise QB. 

2 bad players, 2 average players, and 1 good player makes an acceptable OL? That's what the Panthers had the season they went 7-8-1 with a prime Cam.

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AU-panther Mentor

AU-panther

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4 minutes ago, Icege said:

2 bad players, 2 average players, and 1 good player makes an acceptable OL? That's what the Panthers had the season they went 7-8-1 with a prime Cam.

pretty much

Final 2021 NFL Offensive Line Rankings | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

very few teams have 5 above average players, fans severely overstate that.

Look at teams in the top half, especially in that 10-15 range.

Like the Packers, and Cardinels, and Bills, you know really good playoff teams.

 

 

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

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1 hour ago, ForJimmy said:

A pure passer that can’t throw a deep ball. That’s a game manager and it’s what he is. He makes a solid backup though. Willis doesn’t share much in common with Teddy. He has to run a lot at Liberty because their OL was bad, similar to Howell this past year. Willis might have the best arm in this class. He needs a good coach though (something we don’t have). If he goes to somewhere like the Saints and sits for a while we will be screwed.  I’ve heard Strong has a solid arm too, but I haven’t seen enough tape on him. 

I'm not saying the Willis will necessarily be a bust, but like you just stated, he's raw...requiring time and excellent coaching to reach his ceiling. Neither of which we can offer.  We need a QB now and don't have the staff to coach him up to be a successful starter on day 1.  Most BBs I've seen at this point has him Q3 on average.  Rhule doesn't have the luxury/time to develop a drafted QB over several years.  Heck, I don't think Corral or Pickett are day 1 starters either, even with a good coaching staff.  We definitely don't have a QB whisperer on this staff.

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TheRumGone Grand Master

TheRumGone

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1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

Eh, Teddy was more of a pure passer. Willis is more of a duel threat, rawer than Teddy in the passing game.  If I has a comparison, Willis is more like mini-Cam Newton, but his slight frame will NOT take that abuse in the NFL. Heck, even Cam's massive frame eventually wore down.

Trey and cam are very similar

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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11 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

I'm not saying the Willis will necessarily be a bust, but like you just stated, he's raw...requiring time and excellent coaching to reach his ceiling. Neither of which we can offer.  We need a QB now and don't have the staff to coach him up to be a successful starter on day 1.  Most BBs I've seen at this point has him Q3 on average.  Rhule doesn't have the luxury/time to develop a drafted QB over several years.  Heck, I don't think Corral or Pickett are day 1 starters either, even with a good coaching staff.  We definitely don't have a QB whisperer on this staff.

Oh I agree on our staff not having time. They also don’t have the ability to develop a talent like Willis. Pickett could be a day one starter if he is eased in with a running game like Mac Jones was. Again I don’t want Rhule taking a QB at 6 and ruining his development. Had we fired him and had a new coach I’d be much more comfortable with it.

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