Tank vs Mingo

[CanadianCat]

1 minute ago, CPF4LIFE said:

This so funny coming from individuals who have done nothing but backtrack on Stroud narratives since the offseason. "Stroud is gonna struggle on that roster"

The irony is incredible.

EVERYWHERE in the news it was Young #1. 

How many places had CJ #1? And before you go say 'I had him number #1'... well then maybe all those people should be working in the league and not just posting to an online forum... 

You guys exhaust me. 

[BrianS]

Here are some facts, do with them what you will.

When talking about Mingo as a prospect, I look at all WR's drafted after him this year.  Those drafted before him are irrelevant since we couldn't have chosen them while still drafting Bryce.  Of those 22, only five have outperformed Mingo:  Puka Nakua, Tank Dell, Jayden Reed, Demario Douglas and Rashee Rice.  Of those five, it's clear why Nakua and Rice have done so well.  Does Mingo need to improve?  Yes, of course.  But in truth he's performed about as well as you could expect a rookie WR to perform in his situation.

When looking at Fitterer (or Rhule, or whoever is running the show) as a GM in the draft, you've only got three years of data.  Of all players selected, the only one drafted in the first five rounds who is no longer on the team is Brandon Smith.  And FWIW, Smith is on the Eagles practice squad.  You can argue that our roster is low on talent - you won't be wrong.  But the guys "Fitterer" has chosen are generally still here.

Now, using this . . . 

32 minutes ago, travisura said:

We simply won't be able to evaluate anyone effectively until conditions change under a new staff. 

. . . as your justification is weak sauce.  In fact, it's just this argument brought us Sam Darnold.  Yikes!  This is a terrible argument. 

Great players play great regardless of what's around them.  Joe Burrow was sacked 32 times as a rookie before his injury.  Had he played out a 17 game season at that rate he would have been sacked 54 times.  Bryce is on course to be sacked 68 times this year.  Not that different.  However, watching Joe Burrow play in 2020 made it VERY VERY CLEAR he was the real deal.  Burrow elevated his team and was SPECIAL.  As you might expect of the first pick in the draft.  Barry Sanders never had a team around him, but he was GREAT.  Cam Newton elevated his team.  Archie Manning never played on a winning team, but you could see how great he was just by watching.

[uncfan888]

26 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

At no point in the OP does he say he 100% believes fitt nailed the pick. He's saying it's too early to write him off. You're the one that comes into every one of these threads and removes all nuance from the discussion speaking in absolutes about the future of a rookie who hasn't even finished his first season.

You can be disappointed and still have hope he can turn it around when we get a competent offense in here. It is like a personal vendetta you have against Bryce and you want to be right at all costs so you can justify how miserable you are.

There's a few people on here that need to read this 

[Stingray3030]

1 hour ago, carpanfan96 said:

I'm ok with the Mingo pick based on how the team is scouting with analytics.  I wish they weren't so analytics driven though. 

Bryce needs a good team around him, he isn't going to elevate anyone, the offense they want to run with him from Alabama needs all-pro's outside at skill positions.  

 

I don't get why he was the number 1 qb prospect.  All these things show up in his college tape. 

 

Bad footwork

Doesn't throw on time and goes off schedule too much when it isn't needed.  

Bad reading of blitzes and where he needs protection. 

Small and thin 

Arm strength average 

 

None of that screams number 1 pick. 

I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote - I have a legitimate question.  If this was so obvious on his tape, then why did nearly everyone....coaches, analysts, GM's, teammates, opponents have this guy ranked as the #1?  Again not at all disagreeing....I honestly haven't reviewed the stuff you posted....I just don't understand why such a high percentage of the "experts" say Bryce was the clear #1 if they are wrong.....I don't care what all these "fans" who say they knew better thought, they could all be FOS.  I am honestly confused how so many would be wrong....the future of our franchise depends on us being right much more often - clearly Fitt is not the guy but I don't wanna get my hopes so high again.  I understand you are saying stats and analytics - but these guys KNOW good NFL QB's also.

[BY9Franchise]

1 hour ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

Just best to ignore whatever that guy says. If he's not Carolina-chuck then he's a close relative or at the very least, his next door neighbor

I'm like 90% sure @mrcompletely11 is chuck 

[ForJimmy]

1 hour ago, Ricky Spanish said:

At no point in the OP does he say he 100% believes fitt nailed the pick. He's saying it's too early to write him off. You're the one that comes into every one of these threads and removes all nuance from the discussion speaking in absolutes about the future of a rookie who hasn't even finished his first season.

You can be disappointed and still have hope he can turn it around when we get a competent offense in here. It is like a personal vendetta you have against Bryce and you want to be right at all costs so you can justify how miserable you are.

Careful he will run to the mods…. Oh wait!

[Stingray3030]

1 hour ago, Ricky Spanish said:

At no point in the OP does he say he 100% believes fitt nailed the pick. He's saying it's too early to write him off. You're the one that comes into every one of these threads and removes all nuance from the discussion speaking in absolutes about the future of a rookie who hasn't even finished his first season.

You can be disappointed and still have hope he can turn it around when we get a competent offense in here. It is like a personal vendetta you have against Bryce and you want to be right at all costs so you can justify how miserable you are.

I agree - I don't think the average poster/fan understands just how bad our O-line truly is - or how much it affects our team and specifically a QB like Bryce.  This line has been one of the worst NFL lines I have ever seen.  We have had 2 guards starting almost every game who are 3rd string or worse caliber, our LT has been absolutely horrible, even Bozeman has been bad this year, and Moton is just surviving.  This is a rookie QB who is getting rushed from every direction on 80% of his snaps...the WR's lack of separation and their lack of agility on contested throws hurts too, but the man has no choice but to try and force those throws.  You could put Allen, Mahomes, Brady, Stroud, whoever behind this line and you wouldn't see a top 10 QB....better in most cases for sure but they would still be bottom 3rd in the league and we would be losing games.  

Bryce might never be great but you absolutely cannot tell when he has a 2nd or 3rd string caliber player at literally every position around him - not to mention predictable play calling.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

1 hour ago, BrianS said:

Here are some facts, do with them what you will.

When talking about Mingo as a prospect, I look at all WR's drafted after him this year.  Those drafted before him are irrelevant since we couldn't have chosen them while still drafting Bryce.  Of those 22, only five have outperformed Mingo:  Puka Nakua, Tank Dell, Jayden Reed, Demario Douglas and Rashee Rice.  Of those five, it's clear why Nakua and Rice have done so well.  Does Mingo need to improve?  Yes, of course.  But in truth he's performed about as well as you could expect a rookie WR to perform in his situation.

When looking at Fitterer (or Rhule, or whoever is running the show) as a GM in the draft, you've only got three years of data.  Of all players selected, the only one drafted in the first five rounds who is no longer on the team is Brandon Smith.  And FWIW, Smith is on the Eagles practice squad.  You can argue that our roster is low on talent - you won't be wrong.  But the guys "Fitterer" has chosen are generally still here.

Now, using this . . . 

. . . as your justification is weak sauce.  In fact, it's just this argument brought us Sam Darnold.  Yikes!  This is a terrible argument. 

Great players play great regardless of what's around them.  Joe Burrow was sacked 32 times as a rookie before his injury.  Had he played out a 17 game season at that rate he would have been sacked 54 times.  Bryce is on course to be sacked 68 times this year.  Not that different.  However, watching Joe Burrow play in 2020 made it VERY VERY CLEAR he was the real deal.  Burrow elevated his team and was SPECIAL.  As you might expect of the first pick in the draft.  Barry Sanders never had a team around him, but he was GREAT.  Cam Newton elevated his team.  Archie Manning never played on a winning team, but you could see how great he was just by watching.

And Trevor Lawrence's rookie year?

[Stingray3030]

3 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

And Trevor Lawrence's rookie year?

Even worse look at Peyton Manning rookie year

[Mr Mojo Risin]

5 minutes ago, Stingray3030 said:

Even worse look at Peyton Manning rookie year

The only reason I bring up Lawrence is because its a lot similar of a comparison than Joe Burrow (curious why he chose to use Burrow as his example as well). Lawrence had Chark and Shenault as WRs that year (chark only played 4 games, laviska all 16) Lawrence threw 12 TDs to 17 INTs has a YPA of 6.0 and a QBR of 71.9. Young has a 5.4 YPA and a 74.9 QBR. Both had dysfunctional coaches for very different reasons but both were fired during the season. Reich after 11 games, Meyer after 13.

With a new outlook and solid HC hire in Doug Pederson Lawrence was able to have a very good year 2 under Pederson and Co. Why is it such an asinine thought on this board that our rookie QB could be better with a better staff that actually knows what the fug is going on and isn't living on a name that they made for themselves 5-10+ years ago? The Jags retooled their offense and brought in legit talent surrounding their young QB with young playmakers and he improved.

However, I'm sure the coaching changes and personnel had very very little to do with Trevor Lawrence's big turn around in year 2 and the only reason he improved was because he's 6'6 220 pounds with a laser rocket arm. /sarcasm /huddlelogic2023

Edited December 1, 2023 by Mr Mojo Risin

[SmokinwithWilly]

2 hours ago, AceBoogie said:

Look I get it. Stroud and Young will be linked for the entirety of their careers. Stroud looks like the best rookie in a decade and Young has struggled in an offense devoid of talent. 

A lot of people here like to say I’m coping with my defense of young. I, like most rational people, just refuse to grade him until the situation around him improves. It is fair to say that he’s been underwhelming and has not elevated the team around him like he should be expected to do as a #1 overall pick. 

I would like us to move beyond the QBs for a moment. We took a WR in the 2nd round. The Texans took one in the 3rd. Just like Stroud vs Young, Mingo and Tank also appear as if we made the wrong decision there. 

Tank was a highly productive WR in college and Mingo appears to be a jag. Fast forward to the NFL and Tank’s production is showing up again, while Mingo again looks like a jag. You can blame Young for this, you can blame Frank, but that’s just what it is. 

I’m sure you can point out choices like this all over our roster. Fitt just simply hasn’t been able to build a roster that can compete with any consistency. Hopefully we move on from him in the offseason as well. 

If you look at those 5, they all can get separation without it having to be created by play design or a missed assignment. For whatever reason, going back to Benjamin, we seem to love big receivers who can make the contested catch (theoretically), but they can't seem to get open to have a QB look their way. Look at AT. He's not the fastest guy, or the biggest, but his routes are as clean and sharp as any of the top receivers and he can work himself open. We need guys who can get open enough to make a catch, not just ones that can make a contested one. 

[Stingray3030]

1 minute ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

The only reason I bring up Lawrence is because its a lot similar of a comparison than Joe Burrow (curious why he chose to use Burrow as his example as well). Lawrence had Chark and Shenault as WRs that year (chark only played 4 games, laviska all 16) Lawrence threw 12 TDs to 17 INTs has a YPA of 6.0 and a QBR of 71.9. Young has a 5.4 YPA and a 74.9 QBR. Both had dysfunctional coaches for very different reasons but both were fired during the season. Reich after 11 games, Meyer after 13.

With a new outlook and solid HC hire in Doug Pederson Lawrence was able to have a very good year 2 under Pederson and Co. Why is it such an asinine thought on this board that our rookie QB could be better with a better staff that actually knows what the fug is going on and isn't living on a name that made for themselves 5-10 years ago? The Jags retooled their offense and brought in legit talent surrounding their young QB with young playmakers and he improved.

However, I'm sure the coaching changes and personnel had very very little to do with Trevor Lawrence's big turn around in year 2 and the only reason he improved was because he's 6'6 220 pounds with a laser rocket arm. /sarcasm /huddlelogic2023

With you completely - although I do give alot of credit to Trevor also - being a Clemson guy I watched every college game of his and he was the best college QB I ever saw.  His final year at Clemson he had no one to throw to and still put up crazy stats.  But I just think most of the people here like creating drama and crying cause they think they knew better before the draft.

[top dawg]

Not all receivers develop within a short timeframe. Plus, it's not like he's had A-1 QB play either. If I can wait to see if Young improves, I can wait and see if Mingo improves. WRs don't generally come out like gangbusters, especially in this fuged up situation.

[Wundrbread33]

All I know is we at least get a chance to see (potentially) something different down the stretch. 
 

The team radically changed with an interim last season, so it could always happen again. Perhaps Young/Mingo/etc have been grossly misused this season, and actually have redeemable qualities.  
 

I hate saying this because somehow this organization keeps finding a new bottom…but it surely can’t get worse this time…right?