Not sure how being bottom 10 in passing justifies so much confidence..

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, frankw said:

I don't think the low passing yardage is a direct reflection of defensive improvement as much as it is that teams are running the ball a lot more. There are still teams airing it out there were 7 QB's with over 300 passing yards last Sunday.

And let's be honest. There was much talk of how good both the Chiefs and Eagles defenses were before we played them and both looked largely meh.

Clearly this conversation boils down to a difference in viewpoint. Some people see this through only a lens that Bryce Young has "improved" and nothing else. Others see it through a viewpoint that while he has improved there are other circumstances to consider.

If Bryce is truly taking grown man steps forward then he will put up even more impressive numbers in the coming weeks. Right now he is realistically in the 25 out of 32 range and we are considering that an upgrade.

He is trusting his pocket more and making plays from it. I’m not saying he will be the next franchise guy, but he is playing with confidence and isn’t afraid to step up in the pocket and attempt the big time throw we all were wanting him to do last year. Honestly it has me more optimistic about our HC than anything. 

[frankw]

11 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

He is trusting his pocket more and making plays from it. I’m not saying he will be the next franchise guy, but he is playing with confidence and isn’t afraid to step up in the pocket and attempt the big time throw we all were wanting him to do last year. Honestly it has me more optimistic about our HC than anything. 

On this we agree completely. We can talk numbers and comparisons all day. But he is undoubtedly playing with confidence and attempting throws we've been begging for. That alone is an improvement.

I share your enthusiasm for Canales. What he's doing with this roster has me excited for next season.

[Dragoon11]

On 12/10/2024 at 4:57 AM, R0CKnR0LLA said:

Everyone calling him a franchise QB conveniently cherry picks only the good plays and ignores all the bad ones as well.

At least I can say he's made good plays, he's made bad plays, he's still inconsistent and is giving you the same production as Dalton did. Doesn't sound like a franchise QB to me but you do you.

I mean, he is not even finished with his sophomore season. He probably only has to shave once per week. How many "franchise" QB's out there took their team to the top in their first two seasons throughout NFL history? Yes, here has been a few (and they had very favorable conditions), but overall, I'd say it's a very low percentage. How might Bryce look right now if we had a Smitty, Justin Jefferson, Ja'Marr Chase, and a world beating TE with a top 5 defense? Before we call Bryce Young a bust don't you think the GM and coaches should come as close as they can to building that kind of talent around him THEN see how he fares? Bryce probably has 1 to 2 more wins and averages 30-40 more yards per game if he simply has a true #1 play making WR and only that. Say what you want, everyone has their opinion, and they're not necessarily wrong. Bryce is improving, but he needs more help across the board. I think the hypotheticals as it applies to him are not so far fetched. Let's see how the last few games play out.

[MasterAwesome]

4 hours ago, frankw said:

For anyone curious his new passer rating puts him right between Aiden O'Connell and Andy Dalton.

I'm happy he's improving but maybe we should keep things in perspective here.

O'Connell just had a game so ugly he got benched for Desmond Ridder. Andy Dalton was so bad we had to go back to Bryce. I mean to consider this is as good news for our first overall pick is a very low bar even for this franchise.

Did you really just glance at a Box Score and conjure up a narrative around it? Lol O’Connell didn’t get benched for Ridder, he got carted off the field with a knee injury. 

[MHS831]

Is performance at this point more important that improvement?  That is the question I ask.  Canales has had Bryce for less than a season, and there are positive results.  Is the team competitive now?  Have we proven that we can play with anyone?  If not the improved play of Bryce, what can you attribute this turnaround towards?  Better WRs?  (not really, he lost Johnson, AT, Mingo, and TMJ--and XL has been decent, but not stellar).  The OL?  They were playing when we were getting blown out.  The defense?  Well, they are ranked 31st in the NFL.  The Offense is ranked 30th, but that is due to the horrible start.  So what is the difference? 

"Since Returning from His Benching, Bryce Young is completing 62% of his passes, has gone 55/88 for 521yrds, 4TDs, 3INTs, and has a 80.4 Passer Rating. This while playing 2/3 of the games with 2 Rookie Starting Receivers and a Rookie TE."  While that is not Pro Bowl material, it is positive and hopeful.  THAT WAS NOV 12 WHEN HE WAS TURNING THE CORNER--people noticed then--they are noticing now.

The bottom line--you can't just look at his stats and feel great.  You can't look at the record and feel that we are playoff bound.  However, if he is improving, do you pull the plug?  Do you not get excited about the changes in a positive direction?  How many of us saw even this coming?  If you didn't, don't pretend to know the future now. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by MHS831

[frankw]

6 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

Did you really just glance at a Box Score and conjure up a narrative around it? Lol O’Connell didn’t get benched for Ridder, he got carted off the field with a knee injury. 

While I am sympathetic O'Connell was injured and wish him well he was having a dreadful game and his future is competing for a backup job around the league at best. You can rabble about narratives all you like. I'm expecting our #1 pick to ascend much higher than the likes of that.

[MHS831]

I do not know of anyone calling Bryce a "Franchise QB," (not to say it was not said, I just did not see it)  and I do not think the current Bryce is the answer.  This is about potential and the performance of the team.  I now watch the second half. 

In this draft, you have Ward and Sanders at QB, maybe Allar makes round 1 and maybe someone takes a chance on Milroe--I would not.  After that, you have Ewers who is probably not going in round 1.   Nussmeier has decided to stay in school.  However, after that wave of QBs I see some potential if you have patience. I don't look at performance as much as others--I see system QBs in college who play in conferences that don't believe in defense and I see kids who have not yet put it all together, and some flying under the radar.  The reason this group excites me is that there is a Purdy, Cousins, or Wilson in this group. 

I think we need to add one of these raw, undeveloped, or unrecognized gems to the roster and develop him as if he is to be the QB by 2027 if not sooner.  I am assuming that we do not draft this QB on day 1, but we find him possibly sliding to round 3.

Who are they?  I know---some of you will look at his stats or performance this year and think "He sucks!"  I can't help people who do not understand the concept of assessing tools and giving performance less weight.  However, I will mention the situation in which each QB was asked to perform--and the things they overcame that are unique to their experience.

1.  Ewers, Texas.  If he somehow dropped to us at any time on day 2, I would strongly consider taking him.  He has been a bit injury prone, but he has arm talent and has had to play well enough to keep a Manning on the pine.  He has a quick release, amazing deep accuracy, and he has brought Texas into the national spotlight.  Injuries are scary but in the past; if he can avoid them, he has a bright future.  Still, with Bryce improving, I imagine we draft WR in round 1, DL or Edge in round 2.....

2.  Beck, Georgia.  Beck had tremendous expectations in 2024 and he failed to meet them.   Most of his problems seem to be mental, however.  He has a quick release and is deadly on long balls when he does not hesitate (mental).  His mistakes were often when he was taken off the spot.  He has the talent to be a good NFL player.  Remember, the plan is to develop him for 2 years.

3.  Rourke, Indiana.  In round 3 or even later, Rourke is my favorite dark horse/sleeper candidate.  He is 6' 5", 230 and also has a quick release.  He is accurate on short, intermediate, and deep throws.  So what is his problem?  His concentration is broken with pressure and he fails to recover well when that happens.  Not very illusive, with a quick release, our OL, and the 2.7 second rule that seems to have benefited Bryce, Rourke could be special.  I think he is a good fit.

1.

[MHS831]

10 minutes ago, frankw said:

While I am sympathetic O'Connell was injured and wish him well he was having a dreadful game and his future is competing for a backup job around the league at best. You can rabble about narratives all you like. I'm expecting our #1 pick to ascend much higher than the likes of that.

I get this--he is not where he needs to be yet, but the team is playing better, and some of that is based on improved play from Bryce.  It has to be consistent, it has to improve, and it has to lead to wins and playoffs before I am satisfied.  He is a game manager on good days right now.  Did I feel confident when we got the ball vs. Philly with a chance to win?  Nope--to me, the mark of a great QB is when their opponent takes the lead under 2 minutes in the game and everyone thinks, "They gave XXXX too much time."

[frankw]

7 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I get this--he is not where he needs to be yet, but the team is playing better, and some of that is based on improved play from Bryce.  It has to be consistent, it has to improve, and it has to lead to wins and playoffs before I am satisfied.  He is a game manager on good days right now.  Did I feel confident when we got the ball vs. Philly with a chance to win?  Nope--to me, the mark of a great QB is when their opponent takes the lead under 2 minutes in the game and everyone thinks, "They gave XXXX too much time."

Agreed. And I agree with your above remarks about the approach to QB in the future regardless of Bryce. There's no reason we shouldn't consider adding a young QB with one of our day 2 picks because this QB room needs new life and if Canales can get this out of Young then we should absolutely give him another QB to develop as a fallback. That approach is what is best for the team going forward IMO.

Edited December 13, 2024 by frankw

[csx]

7 minutes ago, frankw said:

Agreed. And I agree with your above remarks about the approach to QB in the future regardless of Bryce. There's no reason we shouldn't consider adding a young QB with one of our day 2 picks because this QB room needs new life and if Canales can get this out of Young then we should absolutely give him another QB to develop as a fallback. That approach is what is best for the team going forward IMO.

Give him someone with an arm and at least a little height

[Shocker]

On 12/9/2024 at 5:41 PM, Tbe said:

Let’s take out all the terrible games at the start of the year.

How do we rank over the past 3 games?

14th it turns out.

(who is that at 15th)?

Now…what would the rank be if we didn’t have all those drops?

[Navy_football]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

I get this--he is not where he needs to be yet, but the team is playing better, and some of that is based on improved play from Bryce.  It has to be consistent, it has to improve, and it has to lead to wins and playoffs before I am satisfied.  He is a game manager on good days right now.  Did I feel confident when we got the ball vs. Philly with a chance to win?  Nope--to me, the mark of a great QB is when their opponent takes the lead under 2 minutes in the game and everyone thinks, "They gave XXXX too much time."

Bryce needs to give his WRs a chance on the deep sideline passes. Other than that, I really don't see what else he NEEDs to do better or more consistently. He's making every throw except the aforementioned. He's throwing on time and on spot. He's throwing receivers open most of the time. He's making good decisions. He's stepping up in the pocket with his eyes downfield. He's escaping the pocket and making plays when the protection breaks down. And he's doing it all very consistently. You can't judge a QB in a vacuum with statistics. He can only control what he can control. He can't make the OC call a play that works against the defense. He can't make the Center give a good snap, or the Oline block, or the receiver run a good route, or the receiver catch the ball, or the receiver run with the ball after he catches it. 

Look around the league. When you watch other games, where would you rank the Panthers receivers on making contested catches that hit them in both hands, and/or run after catch? I know I watch other games (usually split screen for the 1:00pm games and 4:00pm games) and see that every team has a guy or 2 out there that looks like he's ready to take it to the house after every catch. Every team has a guy or 2 out there catching the ball with defenders in tight coverage. Panthers get that occassionally - mostly Thielen. But no one is out there running after the catch. No one. Even running backs are taking screens to the house in other games. That's huge for stats and it's makes a QB's job easier. Bryce's passing yards are basically where the receivers catch the ball. When you complete 20+ passes and nobody breaks one, that's a lot of pressure. 

Bryce was horrible overall last season and the first 2 games this season. He deserved to be benched. He was playing like a scared puppy out there. It was embarrassing for him and the team. I called him trash after the second game. But he's always been a threat in a close game with 2 minutes on the clock. Even last year. And he's actually taken a step forward in that department this season. But again, he can only control what he can control. 

Wins and losses are a team stat. Not a QB stat. 

 

[mav1234]

9 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

Bryce needs to give his WRs a chance on the deep sideline passes. Other than that, I really don't see what else he NEEDs to do better or more consistently. He's making every throw except the aforementioned. He's throwing on time and on spot. He's throwing receivers open most of the time. He's making good decisions. He's stepping up in the pocket with his eyes downfield. He's escaping the pocket and making plays when the protection breaks down. And he's doing it all very consistently. You can't judge a QB in a vacuum with statistics. He can only control what he can control. He can't make the OC call a play that works against the defense. He can't make the Center give a good snap, or the Oline block, or the receiver run a good route, or the receiver catch the ball, or the receiver run with the ball after he catches it. 

Look around the league. When you watch other games, where would you rank the Panthers receivers on making contested catches that hit them in both hands, and/or run after catch? I know I watch other games (usually split screen for the 1:00pm games and 4:00pm games) and see that every team has a guy or 2 out there that looks like he's ready to take it to the house after every catch. Every team has a guy or 2 out there catching the ball with defenders in tight coverage. Panthers get that occassionally - mostly Thielen. But no one is out there running after the catch. No one. Even running backs are taking screens to the house in other games. That's huge for stats and it's makes a QB's job easier. Bryce's passing yards are basically where the receivers catch the ball. When you complete 20+ passes and nobody breaks one, that's a lot of pressure. 

Bryce was horrible overall last season and the first 2 games this season. He deserved to be benched. He was playing like a scared puppy out there. It was embarrassing for him and the team. I called him trash after the second game. But he's always been a threat in a close game with 2 minutes on the clock. Even last year. And he's actually taken a step forward in that department this season. But again, he can only control what he can control. 

Wins and losses are a team stat. Not a QB stat. 

 

Overall he's shown huge strides. And I think he has shown he can make almost every throw he needs to, but some need to be done with more consistency and placement. Bryce is missing guys very deep in a general sense; sometimes they manage to get to the ball anyway, sometimes they drop it. Some of that is just the experience together. He also has times where his footwork is terrible, but it's so much better than earlier in the season. Last game, either he or Canales was not getting the offense to the line fast enough (this is hard to be sure of), which I think reflects the inexperience of both. Fwiw, we do have YAC guys in Coker and Sanders... Just need to get them on the field again.

[MasterAwesome]

2 hours ago, frankw said:

While I am sympathetic O'Connell was injured and wish him well he was having a dreadful game and his future is competing for a backup job around the league at best. You can rabble about narratives all you like. I'm expecting our #1 pick to ascend much higher than the likes of that.

Yeah the issue is your incessant need to sensationalize everything.  Why can't you just say you have higher standards for our QB, instead of "Bryce is on par with the guy who was just BENCHED against Tampa Bay for being so awful!!!" which was just a lie.

It's ironic that the broader conversation here is around people who just point to stats/box scores without actually watching the game or putting it in context of how Bryce actually looked on the field...and then you literally just did that egregiously for Aidan O'Connell lol.  You've perfectly exemplified why it's silly to make assumptions entirely from a box score.