Two Backs vs One

[Mage]

4 hours ago, t96 said:

I'm not really a huge fan of having two backs share the load equally. It worked with double trouble for us for sure but that's very rare to have success like that with a duo. Halfbacks rely so much on building momentum and getting up to speed during a game and that's not really possible when you and another player keep switching out. So I actually really do like having McC as our workhorse back, and he's absolutely proven capable of handling it.

 

All that being said, even true workhorse backs of the past haven't played nearly 100% of the snaps like McC is. That's just silly. Workhorse backs still need a guy to spell them, and in McC's case a short yardage specialist (like it seemed CJ could be) would be beneficial as well. So not entirely happy with what we're doing but it is in my opinion much better than if we had another situation like last year with Stew and McC but with CJ or someone else instead.

That statistic is impressive, but I think people read too much into it.  IIRC he's still played less total snaps than Gurley, Panthers just don't run a lot of plays relative to other teams - we're a ball control team.   Second it isn't like he's getting hit each time.  His # of touches is roughly the same of other top backs.

[t96]

18 minutes ago, Mage said:

That statistic is impressive, but I think people read too much into it.  IIRC he's still played less total snaps than Gurley, Panthers just don't run a lot of plays relative to other teams - we're a ball control team.   Second it isn't like he's getting hit each time.  His # of touches is roughly the same of other top backs.

I think it's definitely pretty significant. Gurley has played 9 more snaps in 1 more game, and the only other RBs anywhere near McC in total snaps are Conner, Elliott and Barkley, 3 guys with nobody else behind them. Until today we had a guy who was a 1000 yard rusher last year behind McC... And there are just 5 other backs playing over 80% of their team's snaps, with Zeke the highest at 88%. Christian is playing 96.5% of snaps (!!!). That is pretty much unheard of in recent years for RBs.

 

I agree with your second point that he's not getting hit as much as other RBs and a lot of his touches are catches which is less wear and tear, but it's not like he doesn't do anything on snaps where he doesn't touch the ball... He blocks and gets hit on those plays and runs routes, which adds to fatigue over he course of a game. Obviously it's been working well so far, I just think it'd be even better and McC would be more efficient and rested if we spelled him more often. 

[Khyber53]

8 hours ago, t96 said:

I'm not really a huge fan of having two backs share the load equally. It worked with double trouble for us for sure but that's very rare to have success like that with a duo. Halfbacks rely so much on building momentum and getting up to speed during a game and that's not really possible when you and another player keep switching out. So I actually really do like having McC as our workhorse back, and he's absolutely proven capable of handling it.

 

All that being said, even true workhorse backs of the past haven't played nearly 100% of the snaps like McC is. That's just silly. Workhorse backs still need a guy to spell them, and in McC's case a short yardage specialist (like it seemed CJ could be) would be beneficial as well. So not entirely happy with what we're doing but it is in my opinion much better than if we had another situation like last year with Stew and McC but with CJ or someone else instead.

Good points, but I think we have seen Armah used in goal line situations a couple of times now and he may be filling that role better than they saw CJ doing. 

And in the case of Double Trouble, we did have two first round draft pick running backs at work there. That's not always the case with other two back situations. I think a lot of this also boils down to the idea that we just can't take CMC off the field for a play because, well, he is either the primary target or the pressure valve, plus his backfield blocking skills are on point. He may just be too good for his own good.

 

[BrianS]

Using Armah on the goal line / short yardage is actually a better choice than CJ.  If you put CJ in, you're basically telling the defense "This guy is gonna ram it down your throat".  With CMC and Armah in the backfield, the defense can't focus on one guy.

That said, I still don't like the idea of waiving a guy we had under contract who was quality depth for us.  Heaven forbid CMC goes down, but our backfield is pretty (*&$ing bleak behind him now.  I saw CJ as the Jarius Wright of the backfield - quality option that we probably don't want on the field all the time but who could 100% do a job for us when called upon.

[CBDellinger]

This is a poor comparison.  

DWill was cut because his contract was terrible for the team.  And it happened in the off-season. 

CJ was cut because he pouted over not getting enough playing time and didn’t like the idea of being an insurance policy while on a 1 yr prove it deal.   All this during the home stretch of the season. 

These things are not the same. One was calculated... the other was forced.  

 

 

 

[rayzor]

one thing to consider is style of offense and usage of the backs. i'm not saying that he wasn't able to grasp the playbook or the offense, but it could be that CJ just didn't fit what norv was doing and there just wasn't a rokle for him the way the offense evolved through the first half of the season. 

i'm not trying to stir up the discussion from two other threads, but what i'm pointing to is what @BrianS said a couple posts before this one. defenses were being telegraphed what we were going to do when CJ hit the field, or would have if we used him to his strengths, which is why I was never bothered with his lack of use.

they did try to use him as a decoy or did try to get him out there a few times as multi-purpose player, but obviously the ones that got the love from Norv and Cam were the other guys that have been involved more, like CMC, Moore, Samuel, and Wright. 

when we get down to the goal line, we kind of faced the same problem with predictability or at least being limited in what we could do if we had CJ in instead of CMC. with Cam, CMC, and Armah (who is turning into a good goal line back). We keep those three in in the backfield and we still end up with a ton of options including the passing game. 

just an opinion here, but as good as we might think CJ is, I think that the offense may have been limited when he was on the field. the way the offense evolved this season, it's needed speedy multi-purpose guys who defenses didn't have a clue how they would be used in any given moment. CJ might have been a good receiver and a good runner, but I just don't think that he fits the mold that the offense is starting to take on. keeping him around, there is the pressure to just try to fond ways to use him just because he's here and just keep him as an insurance policy in case things break down (but I still think that resorting to him would possibly have resulted in an offensive overhaul the way replacing cam with just about anyone would).

obviously he was wanting to get a chance to prove himself and earn his way to another contract. that wasn't going to happen here. best case for him and probably everyone is to just let him go and let him find a better fit somewhere else rather than try to force him into the offensive picture here.

it might come back to bite us in the butt, but I think the offense will probably be more focused without trying to fit him in somewhere.

[Toomers]

6 minutes ago, rayzor said:

one thing to consider is style of offense and usage of the backs. i'm not saying that he wasn't able to grasp the playbook or the offense, but it could be that CJ just didn't fit what norv was doing and there just wasn't a rokle for him the way the offense evolved through the first half of the season. 

i'm not trying to stir up the discussion from two other threads, but what i'm pointing to is what @BrianS said a couple posts before this one. defenses were being telegraphed what we were going to do when CJ hit the field, or would have if we used him to his strengths, which is why I was never bothered with his lack of use.

they did try to use him as a decoy or did try to get him out there a few times as multi-purpose player, but obviously the ones that got the love from Norv and Cam were the other guys that have been involved more, like CMC, Moore, Samuel, and Wright. 

when we get down to the goal line, we kind of faced the same problem with predictability or at least being limited in what we could do if we had CJ in instead of CMC. with Cam, CMC, and Armah (who is turning into a good goal line back). We keep those three in in the backfield and we still end up with a ton of options including the passing game. 

just an opinion here, but as good as we might think CJ is, I think that the offense may have been limited when he was on the field. the way the offense evolved this season, it's needed speedy multi-purpose guys who defenses didn't have a clue how they would be used in any given moment. CJ might have been a good receiver and a good runner, but I just don't think that he fits the mold that the offense is starting to take on. keeping him around, there is the pressure to just try to fond ways to use him just because he's here and just keep him as an insurance policy in case things break down (but I still think that resorting to him would possibly have resulted in an offensive overhaul the way replacing cam with just about anyone would).

obviously he was wanting to get a chance to prove himself and earn his way to another contract. that wasn't going to happen here. best case for him and probably everyone is to just let him go and let him find a better fit somewhere else rather than try to force him into the offensive picture here.

it might come back to bite us in the butt, but I think the offense will probably be more focused without trying to fit him in somewhere.

So having CAP/Cadet in the game doesn’t telegraph situations(even though both are limited in their skill sets) but having someone who is at worst, average or better at all assignments does? 

 

  Not buying that one bit.

[rayzor]

12 minutes ago, Toomers said:

So having CAP/Cadet in the game doesn’t telegraph situations(even though both are limited in their skill sets) but having someone who is at worst, average or better at all assignments does? 

 

  Not buying that one bit.

I don't know anything about cadet or how/if he'd be used (though we'd probably be pretty desperate if we did much), but I don't think CAP will be used really any more or less or differently than CJ and as limited as the results were with CJ, I don't think we'll see much of a drop off.

if CMC goes out, though, as good as CJ is, I think that the offense would have taken a few steps back and it would hurt much in the way losing cam would. so much of the offense is built around his specific skill set. he's better quality depth, but I still don't think he was all that great a fit for the offense as is which is why he was so rarely used. he was an afterthought for norv and was rarely noticed by cam since those two drops early on.

[Toomers]

8 minutes ago, rayzor said:

I don't know anything about cadet or how/if he'd be used (though we'd probably be pretty desperate if we did much), but I don't think CAP will be used really any more or less or differently than CJ and as limited as the results were with CJ, I don't think we'll see much of a drop off.

if CMC goes out, though, as good as CJ is, I think that the offense would have taken a few steps back and it would hurt much in the way losing cam would. so much of the offense is built around his specific skill set. he's better quality depth, but I still don't think he was all that great a fit for the offense as is which is why he was so rarely used. he was an afterthought for norv and was rarely noticed by cam since those two drops early on.

My point was about this telegraphing plays concept. At least CJ is solid in all areas. While not CMC, he was well rounded enough to not tip the play. CAP/ Cadet will telegraph plays much worse with limited skill sets. 

  CJ played 3 years with Peyton Manning. I kind of doubt he couldn’t “pick up” an offense. And their is no financial benefit, only more money spent. So what other theories are left? 

[rayzor]

I didn't say he couldn't pick up the offense (although it's a minute possibility that it didn't click for him). I said he might not have been a good fit for it, which is probably one of the better and more realistic ideas for why he wasn't used more than he was by norv and wasn't looked at by cam much when he was on the field.

you have any theories other than the team is run by morons? I mean I've been following this team for long enough and have been critical of hurney and rivera long enough that I admit its always a possibility, but I think there's probably more to the lack of usage than that.

[Doc Holiday]

Only way this backfired imo is if CMC gets hurt.

CJ had great potential but the panthers were screwing him royally with lack of carries for his next contract. If I were him, I’d me mad too. 

I think the Panthers releasing him, was a sorry bro, and doing him a solid. Expect him to sign soon. 

[Toomers]

26 minutes ago, rayzor said:

I didn't say he couldn't pick up the offense (although it's a minute possibility that it didn't click for him). I said he might not have been a good fit for it, which is probably one of the better and more realistic ideas for why he wasn't used more than he was by norv and wasn't looked at by cam much when he was on the field.

you have any theories other than the team is run by morons? I mean I've been following this team for long enough and have been critical of hurney and rivera long enough that I admit its always a possibility, but I think there's probably more to the lack of usage than that.

 Just all the theories from the thread. Not all yours. Just got to rambling.

  My first reaction was CJ had to do something to “force” this. Because why would you do this for any other reason. But the team says no. Anderson says no. So who knows? I am simply going by what’s reported by credible sources and direct statements from CJ and Hurney. 

  Its simple. If CJ wanted out, fine. There is no blame anywhere. It didn’t work out and you don’t want someone who wants to be somewhere else. But....

    If this is just spending money to get worse, then it’s a much bigger issue that needs to be handled this off-season. But I still have a hard time believing that this option is realistic. At least I hope not for the future. 

  I’m not pinned down to trying to blame anyone. I laid out how I feel under both scenarios. Which since we don’t know what exactly happened, is all I can do. 

 

[Mr. Scot]

2 hours ago, BrianS said:

Using Armah on the goal line / short yardage is actually a better choice than CJ.  If you put CJ in, you're basically telling the defense "This guy is gonna ram it down your throat".  With CMC and Armah in the backfield, the defense can't focus on one guy.

That said, I still don't like the idea of waiving a guy we had under contract who was quality depth for us.  Heaven forbid CMC goes down, but our backfield is pretty (*&$ing bleak behind him now.  I saw CJ as the Jarius Wright of the backfield - quality option that we probably don't want on the field all the time but who could 100% do a job for us when called upon.

What would prevent you from putting Anderson and McCaffrey in at the same time?

We did it several times early in the season and it worked pretty well.

[Mr. Scot]

59 minutes ago, Doc Holiday said:

Only way this backfired imo is if CMC gets hurt.

CJ had great potential but the panthers were screwing him royally with lack of carries for his next contract. If I were him, I’d me mad too. 

I think the Panthers releasing him, was a sorry bro, and doing him a solid. Expect him to sign soon. 

That's nice, except it makes us worse.

Anderson was only signed to a one-year contract. We've played nine games. And now we let him go to keep him happy, in the process make ourselves worse and make some other team better?

I seem to recall somebody saying the first, second and third things that he cared about were all "winning". This doesn't exactly contribute to that.