All Panthers draft picks

[1of10Charnatives]

8 hours ago, weyco2000 said:

Loves Cam, but hates the guy who chose him... perfect logic. 

I know Cam was not the absolute no brainer some Hurney detractors claim he was, but let’s be real, he was easily the best Qb prospect that year and a strong one overall. When such a prospect is there, franchises not named the Browns just pick them first and start thinking about the rest of their draft early.

Its entirely possible to love Cam and hate Hurney because A) picking him was not some genius move, it was the fairly obvious thing to do, and B) Hurney has failed to provide Cam with quality oline protection since, contributing heavily to his injury problems.

[Ricky Spanish]

7 hours ago, beo said:

first off drafting in the first round is not anywhere near a gimme. the idea that picking in the first round is easy is entirely flawed and ignores context and statistic, its a narrative which has been spread around here in an attempt to discredit marty and push the "hurney bad" narrative. i also had no idea that josh norman, greg hardy, kawann short, ryan kalil, charles johnson, deshaun foster,  and trai turner were first round picks. hate marty for his cap management, we are above average in terms of drafting.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1579957-who-is-the-best-drafting-team-in-the-nfl#slide2 (where we rank 12th in drafting as of 2013, around when hurney was canned)

 

"no team was a bigger surprise to us than the Panthers, who finished with 61 points, good for 12th overall.

They've drafted six Pro Bowl players and four All-Pro players. However, where they really made an impact is drafting starters. They have drafted 28 current starters in the league, including nine that were drafted between rounds five and seven.

It appears as if the Panthers have built a roster that should be ready to compete rather quickly."

 

https://www.derp/2012/4/25/2973820/are-nfl-draft-results-enough-to-evaluate-a-nfl-gm-probably-not-part-2

 

hate hurney for his absymal cap and asset management,  not for his above average scouting and drafting ability.

This is from 2013.

All those numbers were inflated from when Hurney still had it as a GM and Greg Hardy hadn't gone off the deep end yet. 

Look at the 2009, 2010, 2011 draft outside of Cam and 2012 draft outside of Luke and you'll see the downward trend in his ability to evaluate talent outside of round 1 (Excluding Norman who was a solid pick, props where it's due). The vast majority of the guys he drafted weren't even depth caliber players and didn't even belong in the league. 

[Waldo]

6 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

This is from 2013.

All those numbers were inflated from when Hurney still had it as a GM and Greg Hardy hadn't gone off the deep end yet. 

Look at the 2009, 2010, 2011 draft outside of Cam and 2012 draft outside of Luke and you'll see the downward trend in his ability to evaluate talent outside of round 1 (Excluding Norman who was a solid pick, props where it's due). The vast majority of the guys he drafted weren't even depth caliber players and didn't even belong in the league. 

Norman had 1.25 good years put of 4. Maybe break even considering how bad he was the first two years.

[Ricky Spanish]

6 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Norman had 1.25 good years put of 4. Maybe break even considering how bad he was the first two years.

I still chalk it up to a win because he was a 5th rounder. 

I won't name him all time panther great, but as far as 5th rounders go, solid pick. 

[Waldo]

2 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

I still chalk it up to a win because he was a 5th rounder. 

I won't name him all time panther great, but as far as 5th rounders go, solid pick. 

Plus he was what 28/29 by the time he put up a good year? I honestly still don't know about that being more than breakeven.

[Pejorative Miscreant]

22 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Plus he was what 28/29 by the time he put up a good year? I honestly still don't know about that being more than breakeven.

If a player you draft in the fifth round starts and becomes a pro bowler is considered break even please apply that logic evenly across other teams as well and see how the panthers stack up.  

Genuinely interested to see how this works out but I would suspect there will be lots of below average drafts giving Hurney a run for the money in terms of being a sucky GM. 
 

i don’t like Hurney either as GM because I think there are guys we can get that will do a better job but I am not going to try to wrap my argument around some illogical anecdotal examples in attempting to make my point. 

 

[run-run-pass-punt]

10 hours ago, panthers55 said:

Not a bad list compared to the league performance. It goes to show you that outside of the first couple of rounds it really is a crapshoot much of the time. Sure hit guys fail or get injured and 6th and 7th rounders perform above expectations.  You hope each draft you get a couple of starters and some contributors on special teams and depth if needed.

Which is all the more reason to get more lottery tickets in the relatively small lottery known as the NFL draft. (Read: don't trade up and give away picks for *anyone*.)

I really love Brown at 7 if he's there, but I'd really love to trade back if we can find a partner.

[Waldo]

7 minutes ago, Pejorative Miscreant said:

If a player you draft in the fifth round starts and becomes a pro bowler is considered break even please apply that logic evenly across other teams as well and see how the panthers stack up.  

Genuinely interested to see how this works out but I would suspect there will be lots of below average drafts giving Hurney a run for the money in terms of being a sucky GM. 
 

i don’t like Hurney either as GM because I think there are guys we can get that will do a better job but I am not going to try to wrap my argument around some illogical anecdotal examples in attempting to make my point. 

 

When looking at a player that had one good year with us and one good year ? With another team that sounds pretty breakeven. Not good and not bad. Who was so bad the first 2 years it looked like a project gone bad? 

That isn't warping it to be agaist hurney because i consider it break even and that's not a negative agaisnt Hurney, just not a positive. 

To break it down in depth seems mind boggling to me. Look at Hardy. Went from OMG to blacklisted. KB had one good year then downward spiral, I wouldnt call that a positive for DG. I can understand not agreeing with me but i don't see the warping in my opinion agaisnt Hurney.

[Nails]

1 hour ago, Ricky Spanish said:

This is from 2013.

All those numbers were inflated from when Hurney still had it as a GM and Greg Hardy hadn't gone off the deep end yet. 

Look at the 2009, 2010, 2011 draft outside of Cam and 2012 draft outside of Luke and you'll see the downward trend in his ability to evaluate talent outside of round 1 (Excluding Norman who was a solid pick, props where it's due). The vast majority of the guys he drafted weren't even depth caliber players and didn't even belong in the league. 

The “deep end” was Greg Hardy given the franchise tag and instead of complaining, wearing it as a badge of honor.  He then started in week 1 as the Panthers got a road, division win with a backup QB, before unrelated elevator video surfaced and the Panthers allowed their immediate and future chances on defense to be forever altered, to the delight and glee of the other 31 teams (in particular Drew Brees and Matt Ryan).

[Shotgun]

Results speak for themselves. He could be the best drafter of all time but if he can't field a winning team, he sucks at being a gm.  

[SmokinwithWilly]

5 hours ago, beo said:

trading up isnt nessicarily  drafting though, i said myself that he was poor at managing assets. my point was that he is a fine talent evaluator and that the idea that he can't pick outside of the first round is false, and that even if it were true, it's still not as easy as people try to paint it as to pick in the 1st round. the OP and posters in the thread implied it was an issue with the selections, in reality the issue comes with his management of assets and the failure to build a cohesive roster. the second article i linked, in fact, was debunking the idea that GMs should be judged solely on drafting and picking talented players. im not arguing hurney's a good gm, he's below average, but i do think he gets more criticism than he deserves, and that he'd be fine to remain in a demoted role here with the team. i also agree with tepper in that he is a good "evaluator of talent".

Trading up or down in the draft is most definitely drafting. Each pick has value and you have to weigh the value of who you're selecting against what you could have instead. Let's look at last year.

Brian Burns - Edge rusher in a 3-4 scheme. Picked because Rivera was making the transition to a new defensive scheme. Only problem was Rivera was already halfway out the door leaving us limited on getting a new coach failiar with playing the 3-4 or possibly having to figure out how to get Burns into a 4-3. 

Little - Tackle sliding down the draft board. Hurney had a 1st round grade on him and tried trading back into the 1st to get him. So instead of letting him fall to us, which was happening, we trade up in a very deep IOL class skipping out on McCoy, our future center. Little has looked overwhelmed and very raw in his short time on the field. 1st round grades are day 1 starters. Didnt happen. If we take a 1st round tackle this year and move him to guard it's an even bigger miss because we could have just drafted a guard and kept our...

1st 3rd round pick - trade fodder. Again, deep IOL draft and we needed a LG. Plenty to choose from. 

2nd 3rd round pick - Grier. Could there have been a bigger announcement other than  billboard on 277 that he was going to be the pick? Picked for Norv, again likely put the door. CGJ was waiting and could have filled a huge need at safety.

Pick 100 - Miller - Injury prone 3-4 guy. See Brian Burns

Scarlett - great pick for a RB who would never see the field because CMC sees almost 100% of the snaps.

Daley - excellent pick. Day 3 tackle who made the squad and the 53 man roster. Cant ask for much more there.

Godwin - really needed a return guy but the position was ignored again. 

Hurney has done well drafting LBs and RBs, two of the easier positions to hit on. DeAngelo made the pro bowl, but so did 4 of the next 8 RBs drafted through 4 rounds. 2 of the non pro bowlers were Lendale White and Jerious Norwood. 

I'm not saying Hurney doesnt recognize talent sometimes, but it is definitely fair to say his valuations of said talent can be way off, especially in draft day trades. He could have every player in 2020 be all pro but if they dont build a cohesive unit with some type of plan, it's just spinning your tires going nowhere. Make him in charge of scouting but for Gods sake, get him out of the draft room.

[panthers55]

9 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

This is from 2013.

All those numbers were inflated from when Hurney still had it as a GM and Greg Hardy hadn't gone off the deep end yet. 

Look at the 2009, 2010, 2011 draft outside of Cam and 2012 draft outside of Luke and you'll see the downward trend in his ability to evaluate talent outside of round 1 (Excluding Norman who was a solid pick, props where it's due). The vast majority of the guys he drafted weren't even depth caliber players and didn't even belong in the league. 

Anything older than the last 2 drafts is ancient history and not indicative of his job as a GM this time around.  You had to go back a decade to make a negative case about his drafting. And honestly he would likely agree about those years which is why he changed his thinking and drafting strategy.

[Ricky Spanish]

3 hours ago, panthers55 said:

Anything older than the last 2 drafts is ancient history and not indicative of his job as a GM this time around.  You had to go back a decade to make a negative case about his drafting. And honestly he would likely agree about those years which is why he changed his thinking and drafting strategy.

Dude got canned in 2012 and was on the downhill from 2009 on. There was a trend in his abilities as a GM going down as the league went in a more pass happy and QB friendly direction. 

Our record since he has taken over is a significant indicator of his job as a GM this time around, as we once again fail to fill the team with proper depth to make consistent playoff pushes. 

All in all, Hurney hasn't put together a winning team since 2008. Didn't have to go back a decade to prove he's not doing a fantastic job this time around, and I say that not necessarily hating every move he's made this time. 

[beo]

13 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

This is from 2013.

All those numbers were inflated from when Hurney still had it as a GM and Greg Hardy hadn't gone off the deep end yet. 

Look at the 2009, 2010, 2011 draft outside of Cam and 2012 draft outside of Luke and you'll see the downward trend in his ability to evaluate talent outside of round 1 (Excluding Norman who was a solid pick, props where it's due). The vast majority of the guys he drafted weren't even depth caliber players and didn't even belong in the league. 

i mean even if you subtract hardy it doesn't change the numbers too drastically, he's not great outside of round 1 by any means but its not like every player he picks is an absolute bust. i was just trying to disspell some  myths, since i think hurney gets a little more poo than he deserves. he has historically been able to pick outside of round 1 to some extent, besides the  shitshow leading up to his firing.