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No more Watson threads. Use this one or one of the other 20 existing ones.

rayzor

By rayzor,
in Carolina Panthers

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jb2288 Grand Master

jb2288

Posted
Posted
Just now, Smittymoose said:

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of a team that "patiently" (and successfully) rebuilds for 4-5 years

We already gave you two? The Seahawks and the Chiefs both did it. Common denominator? Star rookie QB on that first contract. 

Again, see Bengals. I'm too lazy to look it up, but in the last 10 years who has won a Super Bowl besides Brady/Manning/Rookie deal QB... Stafford this year? Flacco maybe? 

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PNW_PantherMan Grand Master

PNW_PantherMan

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Basically every team's rebuild time is the period of time it takes them to draft a top tier QB.

The Rams drafted Jared Goff at the start of their rebuild, and accumulated tons of talent around him and on defense.  They realized Goff wasn't going to be enough, so they cashed out their future 1sts to go all in on the roster they built.

The Broncos traded for Wilson because correct or not, they believe they have a Super Bowl roster waiting for him.

We're just hot shotting a trade for a veteran franchise QB without the roster to go with it.  I don't understand why our current FO is so averse to drafting their own QB, when that's literally how any team goes from being bad to good.  They draft their own QB.

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Smittymoose Experienced

Smittymoose

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Just now, 45catfan said:

The Seahawks rebuilt under Carroll and he drafted Wilson.  They won the SB in a couple of years of together.  While the Chiefs were decent under Reid, they were in purgatory until they drafted Mahommes.  The Bengals drafted Burrow and the Bills Allen under new/newish staffs and their fortunes have changed without going the crazy route the Panthers are attempting to take.

You told me 4-5 year rebuild. Who spent 4-5 years rebuilding? 

By the way, Chiefs traded two firsts and a mid-round pick for Mahomes. They were picking 27th in that draft. There was no rebuild. The Bills had to trade up to get Allen too. They had to give up two present seconds and a first to get him.

You always pay for a QB. We can wait a year, hope that a legitimate franchise QB develops, hope that we can get into position to draft him, and still probably will end up giving up multiple picks over multiple years to get him in the 2023 Draft. 

Those are your own examples, by the way. 

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YourLastThought Mentor

YourLastThought

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Smittymoose said:

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of a team that "patiently" (and successfully) rebuilds for 4-5 years

Giving up every draft pick and star asset we have for a QB who isn't the very best in the league and hasn't played in a year is no way to go either. We are screwed if we make this deal for Watson. Plus when his pee pee gets excited again and he ends up back in a massage parlor on a dark side of Charlotte about 57 times and does all this crap again we run risk of losing him to suspension. This guy will be watched like a hawk now and I don't think he has the brains to overcome his weiner. 

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

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Posted
Just now, Smittymoose said:

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of a team that "patiently" (and successfully) rebuilds for 4-5 years

You really want Rhule to stick around, don't you?  Watson will do nothing but keep this team middling enough to keep that clown around.  I can tell you this much, give Rhule his full 7 years, even with Watson, and this will be one more seriously clinically depressed fan base.

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Smittymoose Experienced

Smittymoose

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2 minutes ago, jb2288 said:

We already gave you two? The Seahawks and the Chiefs both did it. Common denominator? Star rookie QB on that first contract. 

Again, see Bengals. I'm too lazy to look it up, but in the last 10 years who has won a Super Bowl besides Brady/Manning/Rookie deal QB... Stafford this year? Flacco maybe? 

Well, no you didn't, because both are bad examples. And again, as you admitted, the Bengals did not rebuild 4-5 years. 

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YourLastThought Mentor

YourLastThought

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1 minute ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Basically every team's rebuild time is the period of time it takes them to draft a top tier QB.

The Rams drafted Jared Goff at the start of their rebuild, and accumulated tons of talent around him and on defense.  They realized Goff wasn't going to be enough, so they cashed out their future 1sts to go all in on the roster they built.

The Broncos traded for Wilson because correct or not, they believe they have a Super Bowl roster waiting for him.

We're just hot shotting a trade for a veteran franchise QB without the roster to go with it.  I don't understand why our current FO is so averse to drafting their own QB, when that's literally how any team goes from being bad to good.  They draft their own QB.

Exactly and couldn't agree more.

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Smittymoose Experienced

Smittymoose

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Just now, 45catfan said:

You really want Rhule to stick around, don't you?  Watson will do nothing but keep this team middling enough to keep that clown around.  I can tell you this much, give Rhule his full 7 years, even with Watson, and this will be one more seriously clinically depressed fan base.

Ahhh okay. Now the truth comes out. This is all about not wanting Rhule around. I couldn't give a poo whether Rhule sticks around or not as long as Carolina wins games. I don't think he's very good, but worse coaches have won Super Bowls. 

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jb2288 Grand Master

jb2288

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Just now, Smittymoose said:

Well, no you didn't, because both are bad examples. And again, as you admitted, the Bengals did not rebuild 4-5 years. 

Okay I'm assuming you're purposely trolling at this point. There's no way you can be this dense. 

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therealmjl Grand Master

therealmjl

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Smittymoose said:

I was told we should patiently rebuild for 4-5 years. Still waiting on that example. 

It’s funny because like what have we been doing the past four years? Rebuilding? Or what? So like we need to wait another 4-5 years? Maybe then we can find that all too important quarterback. Just maybe.

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

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Posted
1 minute ago, Smittymoose said:

You told me 4-5 year rebuild. Who spent 4-5 years rebuilding? 

By the way, Chiefs traded two firsts and a mid-round pick for Mahomes. They were picking 27th in that draft. There was no rebuild. The Bills had to trade up to get Allen too. They had to give up two present seconds and a first to get him.

You always pay for a QB. We can wait a year, hope that a legitimate franchise QB develops, hope that we can get into position to draft him, and still probably will end up giving up multiple picks over multiple years to get him in the 2023 Draft. 

Those are your own examples, by the way. 

If we have to trade up some to get a franchise QB  next year, then so be it.  It's not THREE first rounders, a 2nd, 3rd and two key defensive players.  Oh by the way, clown-boy is roaming the sidelines.

I am nearly certain that if Watson goes elsewhere this team will be bad enough to get a top 15 pick. Zero doubt in my mind.  Will we have to trade up for a QB?  Possibly, but it won't be for the stupidly-insane amount we are willing to give up for Watson. 

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    • CPantherKing
      So, just what is it that makes a QB "elite"?

      By CPantherKing · Posted

      I've explained this in more detail before. Briefly, there's a process to quickly evaluate a QB. Also, there's a type of QB that excels at a higher rate than others at the pro level. After that, it's about keeping the QBs flowing through the system. 1st round QBs are not superior, they just get more reps and game time. You can find just as many competitive QBs that are 3rd day or undrafted if you give them the same reps and game time. Now, to dive deeper for fun. To understand this further, there are rare 1st round QB exceptions, but they must come with a pro pedigree and proven success in college. There's only 1 to 3 of these QBs every decade (John Elway 1983, Peyton Manning 1998, Eli Manning 2004, Andrew Luck 2012, Jared Goff 2016, Patrick Mahomes 2017, and Joe Burrow 2020. That's 1 of every 20 1st round QBs (5% of historical 1st round QBs in modern draft era). When you look at 1st rd QB success, eliminate these rare ones from your samples because they are trained to be championship QBs. 100% of them have taken their team to a championship. Also, the Bill Walsh tree knows the formula for building an offense and finding a QB QUICKLY. The question is why haven't others figured it out & continue to waste draft capital on QBs? Based on my QB evaluation system, here's the QBs I had slotted for the Panthers over the past 10 drafts. Patrick Mahomes, Brad Kaaya, Cooper Rush, Lamar Jackson, Brett Rypien, Tyler Huntley, Jalen Hurts, Shane Buechele, Desmond Ridder, Brock Purdy, Aqeel Glass, Jack Coan, Aidan O'Connell, Tanner McKee, Spencer Rattler, Devin Leary, Sam Hartman, Quinn Ewers. The ones in bold were the ones that rated the highest for pro championship qualities (probable franchise QBs). Obviously,  we didn't need them all, but it's about flow of pro championship qualities shown in college and not the most physically gifted. Also, there are a few QBs every decade who have the qualities, but never get a chance. If you're talent evaluation/QB system is good enough, you can go get 2 to 3 of them tomorrow to show what they can do when their name is called. I expect 1 of every 6 QBs to be worthy of being a franchise QB. There's strict rules to the depth chart qualifications, rotation, minimum KPIs and cuts/trades for me. Panthers have had Collins, Beuerlein, Weinke, Delhomme, Clausen, Newton, Bridgewater, Darnold, and Young. If you include Lewis, Peete, Allen and Mayfield, the Panthers have had 3 of 13 championship level franchise QBs. 1 of 5 (1 of 6 if you don't count Collins). It's the same for every franchise. The difference is a certain coaching tree knows how to move them through quicker than all the others while building defense with the most valuable draft picks. For Walsh, Montana(3rd rd) was his 3rd QB and Young(trade) was his 12th (9 yrs). He had a process allowing him to move through them rapidly. For Holmgren, Favre(trade) was his 4th QB and Hasselbeck(6th rd/trade) was his 15th QB (10 yrs). Neither of them settled on or tried to solve the problems of their 1st QB. For Andy Reid, McNabb(1st rd) was his 2nd QB and Mahomes(1st rd) was his 15th QB (19yrs). For John Harbaugh, Flacco(1st rd) was his 1st and Jackson(1st rd) was his 8th (11 yrs). For Sean McVay, Goff(1st rd) was his 1st and Stafford(trade) was his 5th (5yrs). Reid was the slow and stubborn one who wouldn't move on from his QB & had to wait nearly 2 decades to grab a QB that is the rare exception. I present this to show how 1st round picks are wasted on QBs, and it's the process fitting the QB to the system that generates success. Championship leader qualities and a process to move through QBs for a single coach's offense until you find a winner is the formula. The ages of these QBs from the Walsh tree when they won their first SB: Montana(25), Young(33), Favre(27), Mahomes(24), Flacco(27), and Stafford (33). Mahomes is the only sports pedigree QB exception on this list. QBs selected in the top 20 picks that weren't a pedigree QB were discarded by the team that drafted them. It will continue to be the same for the QB position as the dynamics of an offense from coach to field to team to clutch moments are not going to change. The combines/draft is just a media show that will only highlight the rare pedigree exceptions at QB for the NFL. You can line up ANY 12 QBs demonstrating success in college with the pro championship level qualities right now & you'll find a couple franchise QBs. Overrated arm strength & athleticism mean absolutely nothing for success at the pro level (that's a bonus). If they had enough of the tangibles to consistently succeed in college, it will translate to the pros. Currently, the Panthers are on QB #1 being shoved into Canales' system. Hooker is Canales' 4th QB (5th if you count Bryce Perkins). 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I expect the top 20 1st round picks for a franchise QB is the only way crowd to attack this and the Bill Walsh tree. Likely going to tell you that 6th round & later QBs as well as the Walsh tree are the sole outliers. We can count more 6th round and later championship QBs(13) than we can the 1st round pedigree QBs(7). As for the other 47 SB QBs, only 15 QBs have been drafted in the top 20 and led their first team to the SB. The best return is the pedigree 1st round QB, but this is rare. As for top 20 pick QBs that aren't pedigree, you're better off running 6th round and later QBs through the offensive system as quick as possible while spending that top 20 1st round pick on core defense or the rare dual threat skill position player. I don't expect the typical media driven fan to agree. I know SB winning coaches keep signing my college QB targets.
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      MNF double header

      By Jay Roosevelt · Posted

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      MNF double header

      By PNW_PantherMan · Posted

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