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"Bryce Young needs superstars to be successful"

NAS

By NAS,
in Carolina Panthers

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Navy_football Grand Master

Navy_football

Posted
Posted

Bryce definitely needs to take more shots downfield. No friggin doubt about that. 

But is isn't just the separation. It's winning at the  point of attack. Thielen and Tremble seem to be the only recievers that can catch a contested ball. 

And there isn't a receiver that can just go get it if you put it up there. Down 5 points on the 30 yard line with the clock running out. Who's making that play?

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, BrianS said:

Disclaimer:  Bryce is our guy for at least this year and next.  At that point, if he's still the same guy he is today, he'll become our backup QB as we draft our new guy for our new coach.  That said . . . 

To me, this is a terrible argument.  "He needs more around him".    If a guy is good enough to trade away your future, he better be the guy that elevates the team around him.

For the folks who say "He needs time to throw" . . . well here are 11 guys who have been sacked more often, generally hurried more often, blitzed more often and had more balls dropped.

image.thumb.png.2dc41404d39c8a7de31ce4ce9368bc62.png

Here's another way to look at something similar, look at all these guys with LESS pocket time that Bryce.  Now, to be clear, the definition of pocket time here is one I really like.  It's time in the pocket before pressure OR before throwing the ball.  It puts equal weight on the QB making quick decisions and the line protecting.

image.thumb.png.1c0e8aafd4cde45b4fba00f4afd0d8b1.png

To all the folks who say "He needs an offense designed around his arm", I'm blacking out all the guys with less than 30 attempts, but using the same sort order as above.  Now we're looking at downfield throw numbers.  Bear in mind these are ATTEMPTS, not completions.

image.thumb.png.6915843899eacf110d8021431f01d549.png

No one in the league has fewer downfield attempts than Bryce.  It's not because he has so much less time.  It's an impossibility that our staff don't know this.  They know it.  They understand what it is doing to our offense.  Look no further than Andy Dalton.  The Red Rifle has nearly as many 20+ throws (7) in ONE GAME as Bryce has all season (8) . . . IN OUR OFFENSE.

The bottom line is that Bryce is not NFL ready right now.  He needs to sit.  He needs to watch Dalton operate the offense.  To understand how quickly decisions need to be made.  BY still has plenty of time to prove that he can be the guy before heads roll.  But the other 50+ guys on that roster deserve a chance to compete.

 

A ton of info to digest.  Thanks for doing the dirty work and lining it up for us!  So Sam Howell has MORE time in the pocket and has been sacked 34 times?!?  That just seems crazy to me because he is pretty mobile.  Also how exactly is pocket time calculated?  Time in the pocket without pressure or is it just time in the pocket in general?  I feel like Young and Howell for example are shifting around in the pocket trying to buy more time and someone like Lawrence or Goff are just letting it rip.  Granted we are talking about tenths of a second so it's probably not noticeable to the naked eye.

Another thing to consider while glancing at the number of pressures and sacks is Bryce has only played 5 games vs most of their 6 and I am curious to know how many snaps/series.  Just a total would estimate him at 19.2 which would tie him at 4th with Russ/Ridder/Wilson and co.  I feel like pressure per drop back or sacks per drop back would tell a better story of the OL protection.  I'll definitely have to read more of it when I have more time...

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BrianS Veteran

BrianS

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Posted
2 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

A ton of info to digest.  Thanks for doing the dirty work and lining it up for us!  So Sam Howell has MORE time in the pocket and has been sacked 34 times?!?  That just seems crazy to me because he is pretty mobile.  Also how exactly is pocket time calculated?  Time in the pocket without pressure or is it just time in the pocket in general?  I feel like Young and Howell for example are shifting around in the pocket trying to buy more time and someone like Lawrence or Goff are just letting it rip.  Granted we are talking about tenths of a second so it's probably not noticeable to the naked eye.

Another thing to consider while glancing at the number of pressures and sacks is Bryce has only played 5 games vs most of their 6 and I am curious to know how many snaps/series.  Just a total would estimate him at 19.2 which would tie him at 4th with Russ/Ridder/Wilson and co.  I feel like pressure per drop back or sacks per drop back would tell a better story of the OL protection.  I'll definitely have to read more of it when I have more time...

Sure, there are TONS of factors here.  I'm just against the general idea that other QB's in the NFL have "more" of . . . . whatever we think Bryce doesn't have that is causing him to fail.  Bryce is causing Bryce to fail.  We have to stop making excuses and change something.

I am not saying it's fatal.  I'm not giving up on Bryce.  What I am in favor of is giving him a chance to step back and watch.  Some QB's need that!  Look at Zach Wilson.  I'm not saying he's a success story, by no means.  But he's looking better this year.  Some players take longer.

Did we draft him too high?  Maybe.  Water under the bridge.  I want us to try to fix it.  I don't see how continuing to throw him out there will fix it.  I'm sure it will fix Chicago's problem, but not Bryce Young's.

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frankw Grand Master

frankw

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, MechaZain said:

Feels like the circular debates over Cam's passing stats all over again. People zeroing in on below average completion % and QBR without any context.

Different worlds. The debates about Cam's passing stats centered around his accuracy. The debates about Young center around whether he can physically make certain throws. We knew Cam could make pretty much any throw he wanted. It boiled down to the footwork.

Edited by frankw
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Mr Mojo Risin Mentor

Mr Mojo Risin

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Varking said:

I’ll say anything over 2 yards of separation is NFL open. Could they be more open? Absolutely. But this is more than open enough to complete passes. 

Not a single one of our WRs is even league average. That is unacceptable period.

And for the record Bryce still completes passes. He's completed 20+ passes in every single game he's played despite the worst collection of WR talent in the NFL. Pretty remarkable.

Edited by Mr Mojo Risin
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stratocatter Mentor

stratocatter

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, NAS said:

I keep hearing this lame argument. What Bryce Young does need is,  at the very least, have AVERAGE wide receivers and average offensive line protection.  We saw yesterday what he can do given at least a window of opportunity.  The image below is very telling, and you can see the one receive that does get separation he's able to find.  Thielen's separation is below league average and he's able to find him.   He doesn't need Tyreek Hill, maybe just one or two more average receivers who could actually play somewhere else.  Let's face it, not sure that Mingo or TMJ would even make any other rosters at this point.  

Bryce has a lot more developing to do, but what I have seen is extremely encouraging.  He will also be able to throw deep when he gets better protection and receivers.  Right now, he really doesn't have many other options.  And yes, he does have physical tools to play in the NFL, and I think those will shine more and more as he gets experience.   There's a lot to be angry about with this team but Bryce Young is going to be a very good QB in this league.

image.png.eb5a981b3d8284dc60fe49320083662f.png

 

 

 

I won’t say he played better exactly because I haven’t rewatched but I saw some super accurate balls. Credit where it is due.

I don’t have an agenda to trash an able player, but I still have much doubt towards him being any kind of bona fide QB star. 

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Varking Grand Master

Varking

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

Not a single one of our WRs is even league average. That is unacceptable period.

And for the record Bryce still completes passes. He's completed 20+ passes in every single game he's played despite the worst collection of WR talent in the NFL. Pretty remarkable.

We’ve also thrown more passes than anyone in the league. 

IMG_0162.png

Edited by Varking
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MtnJax Rising Star

MtnJax

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, GoobyPls said:

Yesterday wasn’t on the WR, even on the completed passes Bryce was getting hit. He had no time to go trough his progressions, on that Chark deep pass he couldn’t step into the throw cause there was a guy right there

I was mind blown when I heard that Stroud was sacked for the first time yesterday. That makes a WORLD of difference in how you can perform as a Rookie. Wish for once we could have the kind of depth on OL to keep rolling after injuries 

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Varking Grand Master

Varking

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1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

58 of those was Dalton.

For sure! But it also goes to show you how much we are throwing the ball in general. Even if it was Bryce and we threw it 30 less times that game we are still at like 11th overall on that list. That’s a ton of throwing for our rookie QB. 

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Varking Grand Master

Varking

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Just now, MtnJax said:

I was mind blown when I heard that Stroud was sacked for the first time yesterday. That makes a WORLD of difference in how you can perform as a Rookie. Wish for once we could have the kind of depth on OL to keep rolling after injuries 

He threw his first interception yesterday. That’s not the first time he was sacked. He’s been sacked 13 times. 

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CarolinaRideorDie Mentor

CarolinaRideorDie

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Bryce has proven that he doesn't need top tier elite WR talent to succeed, take Theilan for example. Everyone knows that Theilan is way past his prime but he is the most experienced and proven WR we have and he is having a career resurgence. Some one showed a stat that Theilan after 6 games has already set the Panthers record for most games with 10+ receptions, 100 yd, and a TD in a game (3 games). Even Steve Smith didn't accomplish that. 

Mingo is learning how to run routes, TMJ is filling water bottles on the sideline, Chark can only run in a straight line. Bryce needs someone he can trust and the only one he trusts now is Theilan. 

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MtnJax Rising Star

MtnJax

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3 minutes ago, Varking said:

He threw his first interception yesterday. That’s not the first time he was sacked. He’s been sacked 13 times. 

Welp, guess that’s what I get for listening to Mac and Bone on WFNZ lol. They were saying first sack

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