Panthers schedule is out

[CRA]

12 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

He played in the Big 12 last year, not like he was in the MAC or something.

Also, in 2023 for the last year of the Pac 12, they legit might have been the best conference in the nation that year when he had 90 catches for 1,402 yards and 10 TDs in a season where they played against 7 ranked teams and 4 of the 7 were Top 12 teams when they played.

Not being a great separator doesn't mean he's a developmental prospect, especially when that is almost his only weakness and he still put up over 2,700 yards in his final 2 seasons of college.

It just means he has something to work on, but he's basically the picture perfect definition of NOT a developmental prospect but someone who should be able to produce immediately.

XL with his 5 years in college but only 1 season of production with weak route running and questionable hands but elite athleticism, THAT is the definition of a developmental project

the Big 12 was weak last year.  The PAC12 was not the best conference in the nation in 2023.  

Tmac is not a literal development prospect.  Neither was XL.  Those type dudes are on the practice squad.  What he is a dude that most likely, given his style of play AND the O he is coming onto.....likely won't have a huge year in year 1.   

Most of the rookies that come into the league and wow.....play w/ big armed risk takers downfield.  That's not where he is landing.  He is landing on a team that needs dude to get NFL open and quick.  I don't dislike Tmac, I don't dislike XL, I don't dislike BY.  I do not think the Panthers are investing in offensive skill talent matches what the QB does well.  Which is exactly what I said when we drafted XL.....who I lobbied for.  Round hole, square peg is something I have been talking about since we first drafted Bryce and rolled w/ Frank Reich. 

[1989]

16 hours ago, Tbe said:

Our defense still sucks.

6 wins.

If our defense was slightly better last year, we would have made the playoffs. Even with the QB drama + new coaching staff.
 

With all the defensive improvements this offseason and offensive stability, we make the playoffs this year. 

[kungfoodude]

14 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Drake London's stats.  I think a lot of Panthers fans would be calling him a bust before year 3.

 

Why? That's very good production.

Pretty much equivalent to the sum of DJ Moore's first three seasons.

[Seltzer]

32 minutes ago, CRA said:

It's the NFL.  And Tmac wasn't a great separator in a weak college conference.    Seems pretty reasonable to think he will take some time to develop playing on the outside in the NFL.    See our last big body outside WR that could get open in the SEC. 

My take on Bryce has NEVER changed.  Bryce is best suited to take advantage of the slot, backfield, etc.  It's a quick pass game.  We recognized the quick PG aspect of his game but never put that into motion.  Big body downfield WRs on the outside are NOT his natural go to guys.  And there is a reason a completely washed up AT is our best weapon operating out of the slot. 

and I said the same thing about drafting XL.  Square peg/round hole w/ Bryce.  But I wanted XL because I assumed like most the Bryce experiment ended.  Canales is building a downfield chunk passing roster.....which pairs with his Seattle/Tampa times.  None of this talk is new.  Bryce throws shorter than anyone in the NFL (did it last year).   

Bryce led the league in down the field throws the last 5 weeks of the season...

You've lost me on this totally.

The YPA in 2023 was abysmal for sure. 

But Bryce was throwing it all over the field by the end of last year... were we not watching the same games??!

[Tbe]

10 minutes ago, 1989 said:

If our defense was slightly better last year, we would have made the playoffs. Even with the QB drama + new coaching staff.
 

With all the defensive improvements this offseason and offensive stability, we make the playoffs this year. 

That is really optimistic with this crew. Injuries will happen and there isn’t enough depth.

[tukafan21]

18 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Drake London's stats.  I think a lot of Panthers fans would be calling him a bust before year 3.

 

If those are T-Mac's first 2 seasons, then yes, our fans will be calling him a bust for sure.  But raw stats after the fact don't tell the full story, it all depends how they happen.  

And to everyone who keeps saying he needs to get to 1,000 yard as a rookie because that's what elite rookie WRs do now, they keep just looking at things in a vacuum and not the full picture.  Usually the rookies who get to that mark are the only legitimate option in the passing attack for those teams.

Anyone trying to point to guys like Nabers or BTJ last year are completely missing the point, T-Mac is not in remotely close to the same situation and is far more similar to MHJ and Odunze last year.

The Giants 2nd and 3rd WRs last year were Wan'Dale Robinson and Slayton who had 699 and 573 yards, their 4th leading WR had a grand total of 62 yards in 16 games (their 3rd-7th leading rec yards were TE's and RBs).

The Jags 2nd and 3rd WRs last year were Parker Washington and Kirk with 390 and 379 yards, while their 4th WR was Gabe Davis with 239 (while their 2nd leading rec yards was a TE with 411).

The Cardinals had McBride with 111 catches for 1,146 yards

The Bears had Moore with 98 for 966 and Allen with 70 for 744

Thielen, XL, Coker are absurdly better than the other WR options the Giants and Jags had last year, there is a real argument to make that our 4th best WR was better than those team's 2nd best.  

That alone is a huge hurdle to T-Mac getting to the 1,000 yard mark as a rookie, no matter how ready he may or may not be.  MHJ was supposed to be the most pro-ready WR prospect in a LONG time and having McBride there was the main reason he finished with "only" 885 yards as a rookie.

[CRA]

13 minutes ago, Seltzer said:

Bryce led the league in down the field throws the last 5 weeks of the season...

You've lost me on this totally.

The YPA in 2023 was abysmal for sure. 

But Bryce was throwing it all over the field by the end of last year... were we not watching the same games??!

looks like I was wrong on that going off memory.  It was one of a couple stats I looked at the other week.  Looks like I confused that league worst with the bad target %, yac per comp, etc stats I looked up.  Where he was league worst. 

I still think solving the YAC and short pass game is the best way to maximize Bryce.  He might of thrown deep ....but he has never been a good deep thrower.  Outside of PFF declaring it with what ifs. 

[tukafan21]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Why? That's very good production.

Pretty much equivalent to the sum of DJ Moore's first three seasons.

Because most fans are stupid who can't understand the reasoning behind stats and can only look at individual player statistics in a vacuum.

See my previous post for full breakdown lol

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

looks like I was wrong on that going off memory.  It was one of a couple stats I looked at the other week.  Looks like I confused that league worst with the bad target %, yac per comp, etc stats I looked up.  Where he was league worst. 

I still think solving the YAC and short pass game is the best way to maximize Bryce.  He might of thrown deep a lot.....but he has never been a good deep thrower.  Outside of PFF declaring it with what ifs. 

Which, again, is why T-Mac and Bryce make for a great pairing.

Bryce isn't a "throw it past the defense and let a speedster chase it down" type of deep ball thrower, his deep ball is more of a jump ball because he doesn't have a cannon for an arm.

Who know who is great at deep jump balls? 

T-Mac

Who know who is also pretty darn good at running short routes for quick passes?

T-Mac

Too many people have only watched his highlight reels, which usually consist of the crazy catches he makes, not the mundane ones where he runs a short slant across the middle for quick pass and runs for 10 yards for a first down.  He was 5th in the Big 12 in YAC last year, but because he's more well known for the crazy contested catches he's able to make, people just assume that's all he can do and he doesn't have YAC ability, which couldn't be more incorrect.

[Chief Keek]

It's always going to be a winning season if the Jags are the first game. Panthers tradition.

[toldozer]

@TheBigKatare you going to Arizona? I'm thinking about making a road trip again. Haven't venture out since we got spanked in Miami a couple years ago

[CRA]

7 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Which, again, is why T-Mac and Bryce make for a great pairing.

Bryce isn't a "throw it past the defense and let a speedster chase it down" type of deep ball thrower, his deep ball is more of a jump ball because he doesn't have a cannon for an arm.

Who know who is great at deep jump balls? 

T-Mac

Who know who is also pretty darn good at running short routes for quick passes?

T-Mac

Too many people have only watched his highlight reels, which usually consist of the crazy catches he makes, not the mundane ones where he runs a short slant across the middle for quick pass and runs for 10 yards for a first down.  He was 5th in the Big 12 in YAC last year, but because he's more well known for the crazy contested catches he's able to make, people just assume that's all he can do and he doesn't have YAC ability, which couldn't be more incorrect.

yeah, you can basically copy and paste my thoughts from this time last year.   We are building an O more suited for Jake Delhomme than Bryce Young.  Tmac and XL sound great for the downfield gunslinger  Give them opportunities to make plays. 

From what I have seen, and the scouting stuff I have read.....TMac does not project as a get open quick WR.  He is going to have to work on getting off the line at this level, getting open, etc.  Which is all good.  This you go to think people will be studs out the gate or you are hater logic just ain't what I do.   Take my XL stance last year.  I lobbied hard for him.  When we drafted him I immediately told folks to pump their breaks on the wild expectations.    If XL legitimately turned into what I think he can be.....his best setup in the league would not be paired w/ a QB like Young. 

if Bryce was going to be the dude, I would have lobbied for Ladd vs XL.  I was an XL guy.   And again, I would have gone Warren/Jeanty this draft.   I would have invested in small ball talent for him to be the PG for. 

[tukafan21]

5 minutes ago, CRA said:

yeah, you can basically copy and paste my thoughts from this time last year.   We are building an O more suited for Jake Delhomme than Bryce Young.  Tmac and XL sound great for the downfield gunslinger  Give them opportunities to make plays. 

From what I have seen, and the scouting stuff I have read.....TMac does not project as a get open quick WR.  He is going to have to work on getting off the line at this level, getting open, etc.  Which is all good.  This you go to think people will be studs out the gate or you are hater logic just ain't what I do.   Take my XL stance last year.  I lobbied hard for him.  When we drafted him I immediately told folks to pump their breaks on the wild expectations.    If XL legitimately turned into what I think he can be.....his best setup in the league would not be paired w/ a QB like Young. 

if Bryce was going to be the dude, I would have lobbied for Ladd vs XL.  I was an XL guy.   And again, I would have gone Warren/Jeanty this draft.   I would have invested in small ball talent for him to be the PG for. 

I've watched literally every single snap of T-Mac's career, there isn't a person on these boards who knows his game better than I do.  And I'm telling you, he is a great fit for what Bryce does well, period.

You keep talking about these "get open quick WRs" as what Bryce needs, but I couldn't disagree more, because it blatantly disregards what Bryce does best.

AND NO.... that's not me saying we don't need any "get open quick" type of WRs, I've long said we still needed one of those in addition to a true outside #1, but it's not the only type of WR that can be a successful pairing with Bryce.

Bryce's biggest strength is his mental side of the game, he reads defenses and plays chess instead of checkers.  That type of QB doesn't need to rely on his WR's to quickly create acres of separation because their mental side of the game will mean they are going to put the ball on the WR when they create even minimal separation, as he's going to anticipate it and throw the ball before the WR has even made his cut on the route.

AND THAT is where and why Bryce and T-Mac are a great pairing.  When you have a guy with T-Mac's hands and catch radius, he doesn't need 5 yards of separation to get open and have Bryce then get the ball to him.  

Bryce is going to be throwing the ball before he even makes his cut, so even if all T-Mac is able to do is create 1 yard of separation, the ball is getting to him when he creates that and because of his hands and size, he's plucking that ball out of the air before the defender even has a chance to close that 1 yard, because the ball is there as soon as T-Mac creates the room and turns his head.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, tukafan21 said:

Bryce's biggest strength is his mental side of the game, he reads defenses and plays chess instead of checkers.  That type of QB doesn't need to rely on his WR's to quickly create acres of separation because their mental side of the game will mean they are going to put the ball on the WR when they create even minimal separation, as he's going to anticipate it and throw the ball before the WR has even made his cut on the route.

 

that type of QB, especially paired with a weaker NFL arm.....excel with quick game weapons though.  

it sounds like you are a big Tmac homer.  I mean, if you are watching every snap he played in college.   So, it's safe to say we likely won't see eye to eye on expectations for year 1.   And my expectations on Tmac aren't all in his control.  As I have also said, elsewhere, this is really year 2 for Bryce.  So I expect the first half of the season to carry healthy odds of a year 2 regression (specifically the first half).  Film, tendencies, and weaknesses in Dave's offense are going to be prepared for.   

out of curiosity, what cons to Tmac's game where in the scouting stuff you saw?