Panthers playbook Cox and Rhea review of the game

[CRA]

24 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

 

Throwing a go-route does nothing to help Bryce and T-Mac get on the same page with each other, as that's essentially just run as fast as you can and throw it as far as you can and hope he can get under it for the catch.

They can do that in practice all day and it's pretty much the equivalent to a preseason game.

But throwing the fade, to work on beating the defender, making a throw in live action to where only T-Mac has the chance to get it, that's something that isn't as easily replicated in a practice situation.

I think there will be plenty of times this year that T-Mac gets 1 on 1 coverage without safety help over the top and they audible at the line for a go-route with Bryce throwing a jump ball for T-Mac to go up and make the catch over the defender like he did countless times in college.  

But throwing the fade here in Week 1 of the pre-season was 100% the right decision for what we needed to get out of the game.

That’s not really something Bryce Young does well.  Why not use preseason to improve what you don’t do well.   We didn’t have that in the arsenal last year.   So yeah, Panthers need to find that vertical play and it’s got to be developed IMO.  Not sure our bad D is the only place things should be worked on against.  Heck maybe even hitting it in a pointless game could make teams respect it more back off because they clearly don’t worry about it all IMO.  

we know BY can throw fades to the sideline.   We and he play too much to the sideline IMO

and that probably should be XL on this O in theory.  Not sure TMac is that type WR but it would have been nice to see what TMac actually has in the tank for that type ball.  

[PleaseCutStewart]

Less concerned about tets drops, more concerned if he can create separation against the press from physical corners (especially if they have size). Same concern I had since the start of the 2025 year.

I think we might need to have him be in motion often to help negate press coverages he will likely face

[jb2288]

2 hours ago, Tr3ach said:

Hes the opposite of what I mean.   I mean a quick, shifty, route runner.  XL is none of those things.  In college he was a yac guy though,  but not really what I meant. 

Not trying to be funny, but do you know what the C in YAC stands for? 

[tukafan21]

39 minutes ago, CRA said:

That’s not really something Bryce Young does well.  Why not use preseason to improve what you don’t do well.   We didn’t have that in the arsenal last year.   So yeah, Panthers need to find that vertical play and it’s got to be developed IMO.  Not sure our bad D is the only place things should be worked on against.  Heck maybe even hitting it in a pointless game could make teams respect it more back off because they clearly don’t worry about it all IMO.  

we know BY can throw fades to the sideline.   We and he play too much to the sideline IMO

and that probably should be XL on this O in theory.  Not sure TMac is that type WR but it would have been nice to see what TMac actually has in the tank for that type ball.  

huh?!?!

Either I'm not following you here or you are woefully wrong on a few fronts

First is that yes, we know Bryce is pretty good at that sideline fade touch pass, which is EXACTLY why it should be what they are throwing in the preseason and getting reps of.  That's not a pass/play that you can easily just throw a QB/WR combo out there and run without practice as it's all about timing and knowing each other's tendencies.  

So since that's going to be a go-to play call for Bryce/T-Mac this year, it needs these preseason reps to learn each other's styles and timings so they hit the ground running in Week 1 and not take the first month of the season still feeling each other out.

Beyond that, I genuinely have no idea why you'd say that should be an XL route and that it's not the type of WR T-Mac is, as it's very literally the exact opposite of that.

It's the PERFECT route for T-Mac because of his size, catch radius, and hands, he excels at working the sideline where the QB can put the ball where only he has the chance to catch it.  And when you combine that with his away from his body hands catching ability, it's a perfect combo.

Whereas XL's worse hands make that a significantly more difficult catch and not at all his forte.

And while yes, T-Mac is a great go-route guy because of his jump ball ability, there is an easy argument to make that XL's pure speed makes him the better deep ball threat than T-Mac, because he can run past the defense in a way T-Mac can't.

(albeit, with the above, I still think it leans T-Mac's way because of Bryce and him not having a cannon for an arm where he can throw it past the safeties anyways, he's more of a jump ball deep ball QB, which again, is a major strength of T-Mac's)

[Gapanthersfan]

The sour towards BY that some continue to show is so far beyond being guarded at this point. It’s tiring. It’s consuming, and it’s pretty obvious that there will be nothing that he can objectively do to win them over. It’s just miserable. Is he that dude? I don’t know, maybe or maybe not. but whatever. 

[CRA]

23 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

huh?!?!

Either I'm not following you here or you are woefully wrong on a few fronts

First is that yes, we know Bryce is pretty good at that sideline fade touch pass, which is EXACTLY why it should be what they are throwing in the preseason and getting reps of.  That's not a pass/play that you can easily just throw a QB/WR combo out there and run without practice as it's all about timing and knowing each other's tendencies.  

So since that's going to be a go-to play call for Bryce/T-Mac this year, it needs these preseason reps to learn each other's styles and timings so they hit the ground running in Week 1 and not take the first month of the season still feeling each other out.

Beyond that, I genuinely have no idea why you'd say that should be an XL route and that it's not the type of WR T-Mac is, as it's very literally the exact opposite of that.

It's the PERFECT route for T-Mac because of his size, catch radius, and hands, he excels at working the sideline where the QB can put the ball where only he has the chance to catch it.  And when you combine that with his away from his body hands catching ability, it's a perfect combo.

Whereas XL's worse hands make that a significantly more difficult catch and not at all his forte.

And while yes, T-Mac is a great go-route guy because of his jump ball ability, there is an easy argument to make that XL's pure speed makes him the better deep ball threat than T-Mac, because he can run past the defense in a way T-Mac can't.

(albeit, with the above, I still think it leans T-Mac's way because of Bryce and him not having a cannon for an arm where he can throw it past the safeties anyways, he's more of a jump ball deep ball QB, which again, is a major strength of T-Mac's)

The type that should in theory should be an XL route over TMac route IS the go route.   Sorry if that wasn’t expressed clear enough. Thought that last paragraph was pretty clear on that 

I don’t know if TMac is a go route guy in the NFL.  Not sure he can separate vertically.  Which is also a question we have.   And then on top of that, can BY make the throws

But we don’t know who should be that guy beyond in theory.  Bryce has never been great at that aspect.  it doesn’t really exist in our O.   Which limits us.  Allows for more aggressive D play against us IMO 

You want strengths focused on, I want weakness focused on.  O needs expanding.   You don’t need a cannon arm to throw a good deep vertical.  It’s more ball placement and willingness.   Especially when there is no one over the top

 

[tukafan21]

12 minutes ago, CRA said:

The type that should in theory should be an XL route over TMac route IS the go route.   Sorry if that wasn’t expressed clear enough. Thought that last paragraph was pretty clear on that 

I don’t know if TMac is a go route guy in the NFL.  Not sure he can separate vertically.  Which is also a question we have.   And then on top of that, can BY make the throws

But we don’t know who should be that guy beyond in theory.  Bryce has never been great at that aspect.  it doesn’t really exist in our O.   Which limits us.  Allows for more aggressive D play against us IMO 

You want strengths focused on, I want weakness focused on.  O needs expanding.   You don’t need a cannon arm to throw a good deep vertical.  It’s more ball placement and willingness.   Especially when there is no one over the top

 

You focus on weaknesses in practice, but with a 1st year together QB/WR combo, you focus on strengths in preseason games to get your timing down in game situations.

And I think your question of who that guy should be depends on your definition of "go route"

If you're talking about a Tyreek Hill type of go route, to where you're hoping to throw it past the back end of the defense for someone to run underneath, then yea, it's XL.  But as you noted and I said numerous times in the lead up to the draft when people wanted us to get a pure speedster #1 WR (like Golden), Bryce doesn't have that type of arm to properly take advantage of a pure speed guy.

But if you consider a deep jump ball a "go route" as it still technically is the same route for the WR, then it's T-Mac over XL 100 times out of 99.  I'd even make the argument that before he even steps onto the field in a regular season game, that T-Mac is a Top 5 deep jump ball WR in the league already, it's probably his greatest strength because of his size and hands.

Edited yesterday at 02:46 AM by tukafan21

[Tr3ach]

41 minutes ago, jb2288 said:

Not trying to be funny, but do you know what the C in YAC stands for? 

Yes, he averaged around 2 yac last season i believe?  Regardless I misspoke.  We are constantly chasing Deebo Samuel gadget type yac guys.  Guys who turn in to a rb after catch basically.   I want a guy who can get quick separation on quick true routes and run from there, not gadget physical guys.  Also, im still giving you your take but he was #189 in the NFL in yac last year.  He had good yac his 5th year of college.

Edited yesterday at 02:56 AM by Tr3ach

[CRA]

Just now, tukafan21 said:

You focus on weaknesses in practice, but you focus on strengths in preseason games to get your timing down in game situations.

And I think your question of who that guy should be depends on your definition of "go route"

If you're talking about a Tyreek Hill type of go route, to where you're hoping to throw it past the back end of the defense for someone to run underneath, then yea, it's XL.  But as you noted and I said numerous times in the lead up to the draft when people wanted us to get a pure speedster #1 WR (like Golden), Bryce doesn't have that type of arm to properly take advantage of a pure speed guy.

But if you consider a deep jump ball a "go route" as it still technically is the same route for the WR, then it's T-Mac over XL 100 times out of 99.  I'd even make the argument that before he even steps onto the field in a regular season game, that T-Mac is a Top 5 deep jump ball WR in the league already, it's probably his greatest strength because of his size and hands.

Preseason is practice vs players that don’t know you.   If you are just supposed to be working on your strengths we should have been running Hubbard at fools all night. 

I’m just talking about a basic one on one vertical route.  You don’t need Brett Favre and Tyreek Hill.  Jake Delhomme could pull it off to Moose.   That opportunity last night was a single high S centerfield.   He wasn’t sitting over the top of that route. 

I’m not talking about tossing up contested jump balls for a jump ball catcher to win.  Im talking my about stressing a D vertically and having teams respect it could be thrown 

[tukafan21]

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

Preseason is practice vs players that don’t know you.   If you are just supposed to be working on your strengths we should have been running Hubbard at fools all night. 

I’m just talking about a basic one on one vertical route.  You don’t need Brett Favre and Tyreek Hill.  Jake Delhomme could pull it off to Moose.   That opportunity last night was a single high S centerfield.   He wasn’t sitting over the top of that route. 

I’m not talking about tossing up contested jump balls for a jump ball catcher to win.  Im talking my about stressing a D vertically and having teams respect it could be thrown 

Well in that case, then it's pointless to discuss, because Bryce just doesn't have the arm to make teams stress about being vertically challenged in that way.  It's just the way it is with Bryce, every QB has their own strengths and weaknesses that teams will be afraid of or not.

And no, preseason games are not just practice vs players that don't know you.

Just like Canales was saying for his reasoning for playing the starters, even a preseason game is just a different environment than practice, and it's more than just once the ball is snapped.  

It's the overall process of the mentality needed for game day.  Making that pass/catch in a stadium filled with fans and opponents you don't know is night and day from making it out on the practice field, no matter who is on the other side of the practice field rep.

And working on your strengths is VERY different when you're talking about a running game vs the passing game with a 1st year combo of QB and his #1 WR, it's apples and oranges.

Edited yesterday at 03:02 AM by tukafan21

[CRA]

1 minute ago, Tr3ach said:

Yes, he averaged around 2 yac last season i believe?  Regardless I misspoke.  We are constantly chasing Deebo Samuel gadget type yac guys.  Guys who turn in to a rb after catch basically.   I want a guy who can get quick separation on quick true routes and run from there, not gadget physical guys.

True elite slot WRs.  I have always said since the day we drafted BY the best thing you can do for Bryce is give him a great slot WR and a rec RB. 

if we aren’t moving on from BY which I thought was a near certainty…..I would have advocated for Ladd over XL. 

[CRA]

Just now, tukafan21 said:

Well in that case, then it's pointless to discuss, because Bryce just doesn't have the arm to make teams stress about being vertically challenged in that way.  It's just the way it is with Bryce, every QB has their own strengths and weaknesses that teams will be afraid of or not.

And no, preseason games are not just practice vs players that don't know you.

Just like Canales was saying for his reasoning for playing the starters, even a preseason game is just a different environment than practice, and it's more than just once the ball is snapped.  

It's the overall process of the mentality needed for game day.  Making that pass/catch in a stadium filled with fans and opponents you don't know is night and day from making it out on the practice field, no matter who is on the other side of the practice field rep.

If your starting QB can’t even throw a one on one vertical route with no S help…..you are going to need to find a new QB.   It doesn’t have to be your O.  But if you can’t do that, life will always be harder than it needs to be for your offense.  That’s a basic throw at this level of play that basically all 32 starters should be able to pull out on occasion. One that doesn’t require Brett Favre arms and paired with Tyreek Hill WRs. 

It’s forever shrinking a field and allowing a D to cheat coverage with no worries.

 

 

 

[tukafan21]

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

If your starting QB can’t even throw a one on one vertical route with no S help…..you are going to need to find a new QB.   It doesn’t have to be your O.  But if you can’t do that, life will always be harder than it needs to be for your offense.  That’s a basic throw at this level of play that basically all 32 starters should be able to pull out on occasion. One that doesn’t require Brett Favre arms and paired with Tyreek Hill WRs. 

It’s forever shrinking a field and allowing a D to cheat coverage with no worries.

 

 

 

You're conflating being able to throw a vertical route with a defense needing to always be worried about it and needing to keep a safety deep on most snaps because of it

They're two very different things.

Yes, if/when a team leaves themselves vulnerable over the top and we get the right 1 on 1 matchup, you need to take the shot.  But that's not going to be a go-to play for Bryce in his career, because it's just not his style of game/arm, so wasting such precious little preseason snaps on those throws as opposed to a throw he's going to be attempting multiple times every week, just wouldn't make any sense.

And yes, it's always been one of my main concerns with Bryce, both pre-draft and still today, that his physical limitations will always restrict what we can do with him as our QB.  But he also has certain strengths that even some of the better QB's struggle with, in particular, his ability to place passes with touch.

That's why getting game reps, even preseason, on those outside touch throws is exactly what they should be doing, because it's helping him get his timing down with T-Mac on a play they plan on running on a consistent basis this year and into the future. 

I always said that hat Bryce does well meshes really well with what T-Mac brings to the table.  That size, catch radius, and hands catching ability is a picture perfect skill set for someone with Bryce's touch pass placement.  They're going to feast on those high and outside throws along the sideline where the defender won't have any chance of breaking up the throw.

Edited yesterday at 03:19 AM by tukafan21

[MHS831]

13 hours ago, TD alt said:

Where are the CliffNotes---the link? 

I think Morgan has done a decent job on paper---in theory. It's still too early for me to say anything with conviction. We think we think we think...We'll find out.

I'm just not sold...yet. Most of these players may make the team, but will they be impactful players or simply average guys that will wash out in four years? I'm not inclined at this point to be so optimistic. The only thing that I can say with surety is that Morgan has raised the floor to an unknown degree. Is it with legit starter level guys? Maybe. Like I said, "good on paper---in theory. I'll be patient.

The only move that I can say that I didn't like in hindsight (but I raised an eyebrow over when it happened) was drafting Brooks in the second. We lost an opportunity to draft an impactful LB or DB, when we already had Chuba (which I thought of more highly than most and said so). 

I think that patience is in order. I realize some of you believe that Tepper's the same old impatient owner, but I don't see Morgan going anywhere for at least more seasons. By then, we'll have more clarity about the efficacy of his draftees. I appreciate his efforts.

No, I agree.  It has to be based on optimism about players at this point, but we are talking about players like Ransom, Sanders, Coker, Wallace, Richardson, Thornton, etc. playing key roles.  Normally--in the past--we were not doing that beyond round 2--I simply feel that the focus is on the bottom of the roster.