Be careful what you wish for

[mrcompletely11]

7 minutes ago, cranky said:

You are missing the point. I just wanted to highlight how board members have a tendency to give up too quickly on QB's as opposed to looking at the coaching staff. 

so what is your solution for bryce?

[mrBdawg]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

This is cherry picking and, quite honestly, with some suspect examples with recency bias. The overwhelming majority of bust QB's that teams move on from end up never amounting to anything more than a lower level starter to middling backup. 

I would wager likely greater than 95% in the past 25 drafts or so.

Is it cherry picking when darnold and baker literally played for us 2-3 years ago?

[cranky]

40 minutes ago, Move the Panthers to Raleigh said:

Yes, we've seen other players and QBs go to a new spot and light it up. But the fact still remains that they were trash while here. Doesn't mean that we should keep them when it is clearly not working out.

We would be absolutely insane to keep Young here for a THIRD coaching regime

I disagree. I think Mayfield with Canales would have been successful here. They were at least while together in Tampa.

[t96]

39 minutes ago, TD alt said:

It's all good. I think that in general, we may be too impatient, but when you see some guys, like Bryce, there's just nothing you can do with them. 

Yeah, and the thing is I completely agree with you about letting QBs develop and sit and learn and I've been a huge advocate for doing that deliberately and being patient while ignoring the pressure to start a young rookie. I think the best way forward at the QB position is to get a somewhat established fringe or mid-tier starter vet in FA or trade and stick with him while drafting a QB relatively high and having him sit a year or even two. The Packers, and Chiefs method. 

 

But all that said, there are very very few examples of QBs who struggled in both their first 2 seasons who became legit franchise QBs. Guys like Darnold and Geno Smith are breaking that mold a tiny little bit, although jury is very much out on whether those guys are actual "franchise QBs" or guys who would be capable of winning a SB even in a great situation. But historically and even recent history suggests that if a QB doesn't look the part within his first 2 full seasons of starting then it isn't going to happen and you should just move on. And Bryce now very clearly has not looked the part into his 3rd season, and with a ton of investment on offense and a "QB guru" coaching staff. The excuses have completely dried up with him. It sucks but it's the reality Bryce fans need to accept at this point.

 

I don't know why teams who have been searching for their QB forever keep sticking with mediocrity for way too long. If they haven't shown franchise QB level by year 3, move on and rinse and repeat and draft another guy. Keep doing it until someone sticks. The other reality is that coaching and front office matter more in the big picture than who your QB is at that moment. Just look at the success Andy Reid had with Alex friggin Smith as his QB in KC before Mahomes showed up and the Eagles the last decade or so. The sole focus from Tepper should be on building out a steady and consistent top tier front office (who then hires coaching staff) who has a clear vision and plan for the team, including the future at the QB position. Not being hands on meeting with guys like Bryce and CJ before the draft and having dinners with their families, etc. I digress

Edited 2 hours ago by t96

[CRA]

8 minutes ago, cranky said:

And they all have more years of experience and are in a MUCH better environment from a coaching standpoint. I'm not sure any of them were that much better at the end of their second year

and I think you are blind to the one FACTOR they all have in common minus Bryce....they all have MUCH better physical tools to play NFL QB. 

Bryce is a unicorn.  And not the Cam end of the unicorn spectrum.  The bad/weak side. 

[Shotgun]

8 minutes ago, cranky said:

You are missing the point. I just wanted to highlight how board members have a tendency to give up too quickly on QB's as opposed to looking at the coaching staff. 

If we give Young more time, will he ever be able to do QB sneaks and Hail Mary passes? 

[cranky]

35 minutes ago, Dave Gettleman's Shorts said:

Bryce young on another team isn't going to magically make him 6'2 and able to throw past 20 yards

Football players dont magically grow taller from their senior year to starting in the NFL. Young had success playting against players with the same height as NFL players while in college. They may be better and stronger, but they are not taller so if his height wasn't a problem in College, than it shouldn't be in the NFL. 

[bandu]

4 minutes ago, cranky said:

I disagree. I think Mayfield with Canales would have been successful here. They were at least while together in Tampa.

Canales has never had what anyone would consider a successful offense as a play caller .that offense you are referring to was not really that good it ranked in the low 20's in total offense out of 32 teams 

the only reason Canales was hired as a head coach was not so much about having an impressive resume it was more about his friendship with Dan Morgan 

[cranky]

4 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

If we give Young more time, will he ever be able to do QB sneaks and Hail Mary passes? 

Of course not but neither could Brees and I doubt Murray with the Cardinals could do a sneak either. No doubt, he does play with some limitations. That doesn't make him bad

 

[cranky]

1 minute ago, bandu said:

Canales has never had what anyone would consider a successful offense as a play caller .that offense you are referring to was not really that good it ranked in the low 20's in total offense out of 32 teams 

the only reason Canales was hired as a head coach was not so much about having an impressive resume it was more about his friendship with Dan Morgan 

Then you are making my argument for me that he is a big part of the problem here.

[Jay Roosevelt]

I get what you're saying, but situations like these almost always require the QB to go to a new team before figuring it out.

[Johnstonny]

1 hour ago, cranky said:

Given all the Young hate here, I thought it would be interesting to have a look at some prior QB’s who’ve been similarly treated.

Sam Arnold was brought here, had a couple of bad games and was summarily trashed by everyone. Then Baker Mayfield was brought in, had a couple of bad games, and like Darnold, was trashed. I remember everyone here posting how they weren’t “NFL starting material.” Well….

Darnold took the Vikings to the playoffs with a 14-3 record last year and has the Raiders looking good this year.

Mayfield went on to the Bucs after and has led them to 3 straight NFC Championships. Again, neither of them are “starting” material according to a lot of you.

It’s not only them either. Daniel Jones was run out of NY because he wasn’t good enough and yet he has lead the Colts to a 2-0 record and has the best stats of any QB so far this season. Mac Jones wasn’t good enough for the Patriots but is doing very well with the 49ers as well.

Sometimes it not the player but rather it’s the lack of sound coaching that holds a player back. I’m not sure either Frank Reich or Dave Canales have been the best for Young’s development at this point.

Of course I know a lot of you don’t care about all that so say you get your wish and they get rid of Young - then what. Maybe they can draft a “generational talent” like Trevor Lawrence or Caleb Williams. Maybe they could sign a free agent like Aaron Rodgers. Not really sure how much better we would be with any of them at this point. I know Young is an easy target but I just don't believe he is the real problem at this point.

But hey, maybe he’ll go to the Saints and we can watch as he wins NFC South with them. You know history has a way of repeating itself.

The 5'10" stat negates anything else he brings to the table....sorry. Its a major analytic stat...but Sucklip Dipper ignored it.... there are prototypical qbs all over the place that bust....you godda realize a bust and move on regardless....

[jfra78]

We can't give Bryce more time, that's just crazy.  It's put up or shut up.

[jfra78]

Just now, Johnstonny said:

The 5'10" stat negates anything else he brings to the table....sorry. Its a major analytic stat...but Sucklip Dipper ignored it.... there are prototypical qbs all over the place that bust....you godda realize a bust and move on regardless....

He would still suck if he was 6'4 230.  It's not the height