Potential $1.2B Panthers stadium renovation discussion

[LinvilleGorge]

25 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

Not really what you are trying to portray under current economic conditions mixed with inflation. While I agree the price is high for anything next to a complete renovation. You aren’t factoring in inflation, especially current day inflation and price of material and labor. So you are either intentionally or unintentionally misplacing. 

Typical barely legible word salad from you when you try to present yourself as semi-intelligent. It's like a Kamala Harris speech rambling on about the passage of time.

Cincinnati actually did some   legwork on this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wlwt.com/amp/article/cincinnati-bengals-paycor-stadium-deal-price-renovations/43636202

They found that the average cost of NFL stadium renovations $600-$850M. Their owner is saying a billion. So Tepper is basically asking for roughly 50-100% over average and 20% more than what the Bengals are quoting Cincinnati.

Again, the number seems high. But there's pockets to line when you're fleecing municipalities.

[Harbingers]

6 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Typical barely legible word salad from you when you try to present yourself as semi-intelligent. It's like a Kamala Harris speech rambling on about the passage of time.

Cincinnati actually did some   legwork on this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wlwt.com/amp/article/cincinnati-bengals-paycor-stadium-deal-price-renovations/43636202

They found that the average cost of NFL stadium renovations $600-$850M. Their owner is saying a billion. So Tepper is basically asking for roughly 50-100% over average and 20% more than what the Bengals are quoting Cincinnati.

Again, the number seems high. But there's pockets to line when you're fleecing municipalities.

I get you don’t like being exposed. But not all stadiums are in the same condition. BOA sucks ass. Let’s all admit that. Do I disagree that the tax payers shouldn’t be on the hook for it. But read the follow up post before you get your panties all in a bunch. 

[BrisbanePanther]

Sorry, but economists should be right there with politicians for trustworthiness. I know that they're good for saying that sports teams have the same economic value as a department store...

But they also say that too much employment is a bad thing. They also say that the economy requires a certain number of people to be unemployed to be a 'good economy'. In fact the current threatened recession is 100% by design of economists who were "trying to take the heat out of the economy", only it's now getting away from them when thought they could control the levers that would force people out of work.

 

Modern economists are mostly dopes who work in an abstract laboratory that treats people's lives as numbers to be sacrificed to satisfy their "invisible hand" deity. Source: I spent years working with economists working on major projects, and they can make any proposal look "good" for the economy or "bad" for the economy by a simple change in Excel.

TL;DR: A position based on the right/wrong of public dollars supporting billionaires is one thing, but I recommend not using economists to support that position.

[LinvilleGorge]

5 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

I get you don’t like being exposed. But not all stadiums are in the same condition. BOA sucks ass. Let’s all admit that. Do I disagree that the tax payers shouldn’t be on the hook for it. But read the follow up post before you get your panties all in a bunch. 

Exposed.

Go argue with the county commissioners in Cincinnati. Yes, we all know there is inflation. The numbers were solely to provide some basis for comparison. 

 

 

 

 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

6 minutes ago, BrisbanePanther said:

Sorry, but economists should be right there with politicians for trustworthiness. I know that they're good for saying that sports teams have the same economic value as a department store...

But they also say that too much employment is a bad thing. They also say that the economy requires a certain number of people to be unemployed to be a 'good economy'. In fact the current threatened recession is 100% by design of economists who were "trying to take the heat out of the economy", only it's now getting away from them when thought they could control the levers that would force people out of work.

 

Modern economists are mostly dopes who work in an abstract laboratory that treats people's lives as numbers to be sacrificed to satisfy their "invisible hand" deity. Source: I spent years working with economists working on major projects, and they can make any proposal look "good" for the economy or "bad" for the economy by a simple change in Excel.

TL;DR: A position based on the right/wrong of public dollars supporting billionaires is one thing, but I recommend not using economists to support that position.

I think a lot of economic theory is basically pseudoscience but it's not all that hard to do an economic study on things like this. Similar sized cities with and without NFL franchises. Before and afters with cities recently acquiring NFL franchises. Keep in mind, most economists are somewhere between extremely pro-business and completely pro-business so it goes against their basic instincts to argue against business investment.

I've never seen a study that argues that public investment in sports stadiums is anything other than a giant negative.

[CanadianCat]

5 hours ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

Do it or Tepper walks and takes the team with him 

Unpopular opinion but I live like 5000 miles away so the tram moving has literally no impact on my fandom. 

 

... would rather see the money go to the local population... 

[ncstatekwi]

[ncstatekwi]

5 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

 

BOA is a decent stadium. Not sure why you think it sucks. But this renovation is going to give the stadium a more modern look and feel.

I love the Bank!

[Harbingers]

8 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

 

BOA is a decent stadium. Not sure why you think it sucks. But this renovation is going to give the stadium a more modern look and feel.

It’s how old now? Even with upgrades it’s never felt like it had a true renovation. Safety poo JR got the city to pay for sure. But a bare bones tear down. Nah. 

[Monrowed]

8 hours ago, BrisbanePanther said:

Sorry, but economists should be right there with politicians for trustworthiness. I know that they're good for saying that sports teams have the same economic value as a department store...

But they also say that too much employment is a bad thing. They also say that the economy requires a certain number of people to be unemployed to be a 'good economy'. In fact the current threatened recession is 100% by design of economists who were "trying to take the heat out of the economy", only it's now getting away from them when thought they could control the levers that would force people out of work.

 

Modern economists are mostly dopes who work in an abstract laboratory that treats people's lives as numbers to be sacrificed to satisfy their "invisible hand" deity. Source: I spent years working with economists working on major projects, and they can make any proposal look "good" for the economy or "bad" for the economy by a simple change in Excel.

TL;DR: A position based on the right/wrong of public dollars supporting billionaires is one thing, but I recommend not using economists to support that position.

Please do not talk about Adam Smith in that way.

[Martin]

If we could upgrade the current stadium, it’s a win in my mind as the current location is fantastic. Too many teams try to build a super stadium way outside the city, which is a huge negative.

[Harbingers]

Here is a comparison of what the Bears are asking from the city. $2.2b dollars. 
 

https://frontofficesports.com/chicago-unveils-2-2b-domed-soldier-field-plan-to-keep-bears/#:~:text=Chicago Unveils %242.2B Domed Soldier Field Plan to Keep Bears
 

“On top of a new glass dome to protect the inside of the venue from weather, the $2.2 billionrenovation proposal includes club lounges, food halls, an entertainment district, and a transit hub.

Seating at the updated stadium would expand to 70,000, with more private suites.

The transit hub would include access to CTA, Metro, and Amtrak rail lines, as well as a new “CHI-Line” downtown circulator system for rideshares.

Soldier Field would also include a veteran’s memorial.

“Chicago deserves an extraordinary vision to take this iconic public asset into the next hundred years and beyond,” said Bob Dunn, president of Landmark Development.”

[d-dave]

Since I'm no longer a Charlotte resident, I can't really weigh in on their local politics.  Cabarrus county is it's own stupid animal!

While I'm not in favor of giving money to Tepper or any billionaire for a private business, I understand the pressure to do it anyway.  There are only 32 NFL teams, and each team is a very valuable asset.  Does it create enough economic activity?  I don't know.  But I do know there is a certain "pull" to having an NFL team.

Your city is shown in wide shots on game day.  At night, your city becomes a star of the game.  For a while, it was the mark your city "made" it.  Was that a good one?  No, but it's all fluff, right?  The games can create a sense of community, give your city something to rally around when politics are so dumb.  Game Day is infectious.  I remember going to Panther games and feeling this sense of excitement throughout downtown.  I loved that.  If I could do that again, I'd love to.

Will it be the end of Charlotte if our local sports team leaves?  No.  Will $600m be better spent in other areas the budget allows?  I don't know enough about all of that to have an opinion.

[CRA]

15 hours ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

 

BOA is a decent stadium. Not sure why you think it sucks. But this renovation is going to give the stadium a more modern look and feel.

A more modern stadium look and feel has never made me want to attend or not attend a game.  Some of the best places to go watch a game are pieces of poo in reality.   Something that spans over all sports. 

if someone didn’t go to a game last year….it wasn’t because of the stadium.  It’s was the Panthers team being a joke and the ticket being too expensive to justify watching them. 

maybe I can get some of the absurdity for a city that wants to host things bigger than their NFL teams games but I don’t see us in the mix.  

and Teppers renovation is on the very high side based on the numbers.