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Panthers possibly trading Thielen?

philit99

By philit99,
in Carolina Panthers

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frankw Grand Master

frankw

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

 

It's crazy that you don't understand the value of having those type of players when the rest of those position rooms are as young as they are.

Coaches coach, on the field and in the film room.

But players need vets to teach them the ropes about how to go about being a professional football player at their position.  They need the locker room mentorship, a place the coaches are only in on Gamedays.

Coaches run the drills, they can only coach up so many players between reps when they're also running the drill.

Vets like Thielen pull the young player aside and help coach them up between reps.

Thielen is one of the most "a pro's pro" guys of his generation, he had a hall of very good type of career as an undrafted D2 player who had to make his way in the league by out working and being more precise than the other players.

If Renfrow wasn't here to take on that role, this wouldn't even be a starting discussion for me, 4 of our Top 6 WRs are rookies or in their 2nd year, they need a Thielen and/or Renfrow around to help them reach their potential.

I think it's a myth you absolutely need vets at those positions just for your young talent to display even marginal levels of competency. It's a cop out for your coaching staff who should be up to the task.

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frankw Grand Master

frankw

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Look at a team like the Texans who already have two playoff wins after being one play away from the first overall pick less than 3 years ago.

Their oldest backup QB at any point since drafting Stroud is 26 years old. He also has a playoff win. Their wide receivers have never been older than 31 and that was Diontae Johnson last year as nothing more than a depth move after an injury who is anything but a veteran mentor. Beyond that virtually every receiver has been 23-27. They have one guy right now who is 29 the same age as Renfro.

They have talent but they do not have head and shoulders that much more talent than the Panthers and they do not rely on aging veterans to a fault. At some point we cannot keep making excuses for our FO and staff.

Edited by frankw
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tukafan21 Grand Master

tukafan21

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11 minutes ago, frankw said:

I think it's a myth you absolutely need vets at those positions just for your young talent to display even marginal levels of competency. It's a cop out for your coaching staff who should be up to the task.

 

1 minute ago, frankw said:

Look at a team like the Texans who already have two playoff wins after being one play away from the first overall pick less than 3 years ago.

Their oldest backup QB at any point since drafting Stroud is 26 years old. He also has a playoff win.  They're wide receivers have never been older than 31 and that was Diontae Johnson last year as nothing more than a depth move who is anything but a veteran mentor. Beyond that virtually every receiver has been 23-27. They have one guy right now who is 29 the same age as Renfro.

They have talent but they do not have head and shoulders that much more talent than the Panthers and they do not rely on aging veterans to a fault. At some point we cannot keep making excuses for our FO and staff.

It's not about age, it's about just having more than a year of experience like the rest of our WR room.

A 27 year old player who has been in the league for 4 or 5 years could very well be a mentor, if they're the right type of player/personality.

If nothing else, just watching how Thielen goes about his business would be beneficial to our super young room, not because he's 35, but because of how he does his job.  But he's also proven to be a willing mentor over his career, which makes him that much more valuable, again, not because of age, because of everything he brings to the table.

And no, you don't NEED players like that to be successful, but when you have them in house, and you have 1st round WRs in the last two years and two other WRs are an UDFA and a 6th rounder from the last two years, then you shouldn't be jumping at the chance to trade that player away for a fair market value.

He brings more to the team than a 5th rounder next year does, and quite probably even a 4th.  If the Vikings don't want to give us a 3rd, or a LB or DB, then I don't see trading him helping the team this year or in the long run.

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frankw Grand Master

frankw

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3 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

It's not about age, it's about just having more than a year of experience like the rest of our WR room.

A 27 year old player who has been in the league for 4 or 5 years could very well be a mentor, if they're the right type of player/personality.

If nothing else, just watching how Thielen goes about his business would be beneficial to our super young room, not because he's 35, but because of how he does his job.  But he's also proven to be a willing mentor over his career, which makes him that much more valuable, again, not because of age, because of everything he brings to the table.

And no, you don't NEED players like that to be successful, but when you have them in house, and you have 1st round WRs in the last two years and two other WRs are an UDFA and a 6th rounder from the last two years, then you shouldn't be jumping at the chance to trade that player away for a fair market value.

He brings more to the team than a 5th rounder next year does, and quite probably even a 4th.  If the Vikings don't want to give us a 3rd, or a LB or DB, then I don't see trading him helping the team this year or in the long run.

Panthers starters average age: 25.59

Texans starters average age: 26.08

Regardless of the Thielen trade or no trade the Panthers coaching staff have got to elevate this roster. It's inexcusable looking at the shape our division is in currently.

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Jay Roosevelt Grand Master

Jay Roosevelt

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57 minutes ago, frankw said:

You seem to have a very loose definition of good. Understandable being a Panthers fan.

But turning down draft compensation for aging veterans with no future is a move perpetual losing franchises make.

As opposed to having a roster full of random 6th round scrubs who can't play?

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frankw Grand Master

frankw

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

As opposed to having a roster full of random 6th round scrubs who can't play?

Just so we're clear. The discussed compensation for a 35 year old player who won't be here next season was a 4th.

We recently took Etienne and Ransom in the 4th and both look promising. Are you suggesting they're scrubs?

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

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36 minutes ago, frankw said:

Just so we're clear. The discussed compensation for a 35 year old player who won't be here next season was a 4th.

We recently took Etienne and Ransom in the 4th and both look promising. Are you suggesting they're scrubs?

add Saunders the year prior who most are excited about.  or the best current player on offense, Hubbard.

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Jay Roosevelt Grand Master

Jay Roosevelt

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1 hour ago, frankw said:

Just so we're clear. The discussed compensation for a 35 year old player who won't be here next season was a 4th.

We recently took Etienne and Ransom in the 4th and both look promising. Are you suggesting they're scrubs?

I'm suggesting they're just as likely to be scrubs as they are to be good players. That's just the nature of mid-round draft picks. You're as likely to get an Troy Pride, Jr. as you are a Chuba Hubbard. Realistically, you're probably less likely to get a starter after round 3 than you are to get a guy who will end up cut after year 2.

We're entering a season that is crucial for Bryce in terms of either ascending to franchise QB or being a confirmed bust. Now is not the time to take away the one known quantity at WR that we have, no matter how confident we may be in the young guys.

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frankw Grand Master

frankw

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8 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

I'm suggesting they're just as likely to be scrubs as they are to be good players. That's just the nature of mid-round draft picks. You're as likely to get an Troy Pride, Jr. as you are a Chuba Hubbard. Realistically, you're probably less likely to get a starter after round 3 than you are to get a guy who will end up cut after year 2.

We're entering a season that is crucial for Bryce in terms of either ascending to franchise QB or being a confirmed bust. Now is not the time to take away the one known quantity at WR that we have, no matter how confident we may be in the young guys.

Let's pause a sec and rewind. The hype for Bryce Young before we drafted him was beyond anything I've seen in a long time. If you're trying to tell me now after all the hoopla about his ability to make those around him better and the comparisons to hall of fame players across different sports leagues that him taking the next step this year fully hinges on Adam Thielen then we're probably already doomed. Thielen is not going to keep any defenses up at night. He has good hands and very low YAC. We have 4 young WR's ahead of him with potential that need crucial development and we certainly need to find out what we have in them sooner rather than later because regardless of what transpires this season the QB room should undoubtedly be getting a hard reset. Those reps need to go to the young WR's regardless. Bryce needs to step up and take ownership of the relationship between himself and his young receivers. That's why we drafted him.

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Tr3ach Grand Master

Tr3ach

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3 hours ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Keeping good players surely isn't the problem. Neither is not having more late-round draft picks.

This is more of a question than a statement.  Could overly hanging on to pretty good players be a problem for us though?

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Jay Roosevelt Grand Master

Jay Roosevelt

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20 minutes ago, Tr3ach said:

This is more of a question than a statement.  Could overly hanging on to pretty good players be a problem for us though?

I'd rather hang onto "pretty good" players than trade all the "pretty good" players we have for picks that we'll use to draft players that are "pretty shitty."

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*FreeFua* Grand Master

*FreeFua*

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Trading Thielen would be a lot easier to do if Legette wasn’t legit ass. Trade Thielen then Coker misses a few weeks with another minor injury and then what?

I’m all for saving cap during years we aren’t planning on contending (this year) but this is a pivotal year for Bryce and I’d hate to see him lose Thielen for a 4th

A 3rd I’d take in a heartbeat. A 4th meh. A 5th no

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