We have a Dave Canales Problem

[SmokinwithWilly]

2 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

Tremble is supposed to take Brown along the goal line. 

https://x.com/coach_yac/status/1993356695016493333?s=46&t=W75E23VenL1ei42iX22E5g

Brown himself said “they didn’t threaten the flats” so he was able to jump it 

Busted plays happen all the time in the NFL. Your QB is supposed to be able to recognize them and adjust on the fly. Bryce had the option to throw into traffic or beat 1 man with a blocker in front to the end zone for a score. Easy call. Run for the score. Sure. Tremble ran the wrong route. The point is, Bryce should have never thrown the damn ball. 

[*FreeFua*]

1 minute ago, mav1234 said:

That's totally fair. I think it's impossible to talk about the mess that is the offense without looking at its QB.

But you are right that there's mental errors. I think that when our margin is as thin as it is, those errors are more obvious than otherwise.... For instance even in the Rams blowout win, there were receivers clearly running the wrong routes given Stafford's expression after some of his misses.

I DO think that Canales should consider giving up play calling to focus on game planning and preparation. I think we often have solid designs etc, execution just falls flat.

And I agree and it’s no secret I want Bryce to succeed and think he can in a better situation but yah…

I think with the way things are playing out in Vegas there’s a good chance the Raiders blow it up again and take the hit on Geno (18.5 million in dead money) and cut him

If Geno becomes available I’d imagine Canales jumps at that

 

 

[TD alt]

14 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

The Rusty Rifle was never a plan B, he was a friend on the sidelines for Bryce. I also think somehow this organization was completely fooled by the end of last year and the PFF metrics etc. which is an indictment in its own right.

Either way it's time to move on...

I mean, it's really a dumpster fire that very few national analysts are talking about. Bryce is fool's gold cloaked in a few games won on the strength of Rico Dowdle and the defense. Canales appears like a schizophrenic coach because of Bryce's incompetence, and Dave's knowing (and fear) that Bryce is highly prone to effing up on any given play that he has to let the pigskin fly, notwithstanding if the box is stacked or not, but especially when the box is stacked, and there's little that he can do but hope for the best and maybe get lucky.

Edited 3 hours ago by TD alt

[LinvilleGorge]

I certainly have my complaints about Canales but I'm not ready to fire him yet for a couple of reasons.

First and foremost, Tepper has made this one of the least appealing jobs in the league. Morgan and Canales are here to begin with in large part because guys higher on the wish list take other jobs. If you fire Canales you're gonna end up replacing him with another third tier candidate who wasn't being seriously considered by other teams with openings. That's just the reality of the situation right now as far as I can tell.

Secondly, despite plenty of room for critique, we are 6-6 despite the worst QB play in the league. That's really damn hard to pull off in the modern NFL. Especially when your D isn't dominant. Our D is greatly improved but is still a slightly below average overall defense ranking 18th in yards per game allowed and 20th in points allowed. Going 6-6 with atrocious QB play and slightly below average defensive play is pretty damn impressive. Even more impressive when you also factor in that we're in the red on turnovers differential at -3. When you combine league worst QB play with slightly below average D and negative turnover differential honestly you'd expect to be in play for the #1 overall pick, not 6-6 and having just played a game that a win would have you leading the division.

So yeah, even though I'm far from sold I advocate for patience with Canales for the time being. If you ask me if I'm bringing him back next year, I'm a yes barring a catastrophic meltdown down the stretch which admittedly is very much a possibility.

[CRA]

22 minutes ago, csx said:

We have more than ine problem. Reality isnt binary.

One Problem is that Bryce Young cant run a passing offense. Another problem is that Canales cant or wont see the obvious.

I think Canales sees the obvious.  Think he saw it from the jump.  It’s why Bryce Young’s career was essentially ended after 2 games into the season last year. 

what do you want him to do?  It’s a no win situation for him.  

I think not hiding Bryce and therefore not getting the handful of extra and meaningless wins is the right call in the big picture.  Only way to get the org to let him get a QB room that fits the O next year.  Every year bodies are available to help teams with QB holes.   Only way to put Bryce behind us….to let games like MNF play out 

[LinvilleGorge]

23 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Busted plays happen all the time in the NFL. Your QB is supposed to be able to recognize them and adjust on the fly. Bryce had the option to throw into traffic or beat 1 man with a blocker in front to the end zone for a score. Easy call. Run for the score. Sure. Tremble ran the wrong route. The point is, Bryce should have never thrown the damn ball. 

This is the problem with Bryce at QB. Unless everything goes perfectly the result is likely to be a negative play and everything rarely goes perfectly in the NFL because those are professional football players coached by professional football coaches on the other side of the ball too.

[SmokinwithWilly]

I know DC is overthinking this and he really needs to be OC or HC, but how do you call plays with a QB that in all reality, shouldn't be starting. Bryce is wildly inconsistent. He should lean on Rico and the run game, but if he does and wins, it presents a false narrative that Bryce is better than he is and he's potentially stuck with him for another season. If he doesn't, he looks incompetent as a play caller, but it exposes the ugly side of his QB situation that he really does need a QB that can execute at minimum a basic NFL offense with some decent consistency. 

I feel a little sorry for the guy because he was anchored with Young this season and even more weight with Dalton getting a 2 year deal. He has very little to work with at the most important position on his team and it's not his doing. The trade deadline was approaching and it was plainly obvious we needed to do something but we didn't for whatever reason. 

I don't think he's a complete bonehead and don't know what he's supposed to do. Win games and potentially keep Bryce or lose them by putting the weight on Bryce's shoulders. Either he succeeds or fails. 

As a coach I know you're supposed to play to win the game, but do you win now at the ultimate long term detriment to your team and locker room? 

[Daddy_Uncle]

Dave Canales is not the problem. He just isn't 

[frankw]

There are two truths currently. We need a new QB room beginning with QB1 and we need to take a long hard look at the available head coaching candidates after the season concludes. Both will happen if we are a serious franchise.

[kungfoodude]

I know it's hard to believe but there is worse QB play in the NFL currently.

Cam Ward

Dillon Gabriel(could be done)

JJ McCarthy

Justin Fields(appears to be done)

It's really been quite the year for insanely terrible QB play. IDK about historic but it seems to be far worse at the bottom of the league than I recall.

[Bear Hands]

2 hours ago, mav1234 said:

We have a Bryce Young problem and until it's resolved it's extremely hard to judge our coaching in any significant way. Canales has made mistakes, as any coach will, but he's also called plays that with even moderately average QB play would result in positive outcomes.  Canales' biggest "mistake" is trusting Bryce at all, but then, maybe he's just ensuring he has a new QB to work with next year.  We aren't the only team where players run the wrong routes, we just are one of a couple with a bottom 30 QB.

A coach tells you what he thinks about his QB through the plays he calls.  

You run an offense through the QB.  And we run the most closed-off & restrictive offense in the entire league.

A coach's failings become obvious when the fault is blatant or if the entire team is in disarray/the players quit.  See: Reich.  But right now, it's really difficult to tell.  

Dave had one of his bigger coaching flubs this past game, no disputing that, but agree it's just hard to see once separated from what we have that's capping us.  Seems like he's got the guys still playing with some decent punch, for as bad as the offense was.  

[Chief Keek]

I'll give Canales a longer leash than I would Bryce. You can't determine what the offense will look like when you have a QB you can't trust. 

[Bear Hands]

3 minutes ago, Chief Keek said:

I'll give Canales a longer leash than I would Bryce. You can't determine what the offense will look like when you have a QB you can't trust. 

Canales comes across as this uber positive, cheerleader guy, but he does seem like he can make a cold decision when needed (see: Bryce benching, calling out Coker, a few others).  Something about him makes me feel like he's a bit sneaky with how he can get.  He's the type where I think if he's just in a room with Tepper, he'll let it out about what he thinks to save his ass.  

And even with the wins, I just don't see much camaraderie between Canales & Young.  They don't reference each other in the usual QB-HC tone/dynamic in pressers and games.  It seems like Bryce is still trying to prove himself and Dave is still just not impressed, trying to figure out what even works with the kid.

My gut says he won't be shy to explain to Morgan and Tepper what he needs to succeed.  And that doesn't include Bryce.  Barring some epic turnaround, the book is close to being written.  He will have more leverage.  If he's gifted a 3rd season, I highly doubt he's going to look and say, yep, let's just try it again with Bryce.  That isn't happening.

 

[T-Wazzle]

More...we still have a Tepper problem.