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Ye Evolution of the OL has Begunst


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bigdog10 said:

Every year we do this thing where we worry about making someone a top paid position player and then in two years we look foolish as the cap continues to balloon. You pay good players. We should have done it with Bradberry and we had better do it with Moton. 

You have to look at it in contract cycles.  They overlap.  There are times when you can't afford to pay 3-4 players a third of the cap. That point was mentioned in the beginning, and every team loses a good player regularly.   If you look at it as one player, one contract, sure--you're right. 

Marty would extend and offer guaranteed money to reduce the cap--kicking the can down the road--and you can do that for a while. He would brag, "We have the highest paid RBs and C and LB in the NFL."--all players he drafted.  I thought, "Yes we do, Mr. Negotiator."  Then people bitch in free agency when we are going after PS players.  So I get it, but if you look at it like "We should pay Moton." Should we?  Whose future contract are we sacrificing?  It is more like:  Moton, DJ Moore, Burns, Darnold.  pick 3. 

If I am Moore, for example, and I see Moton getting paid more than any other RT in the league and most LTs, what do I think? 

A:  I want to get paid like an elite player too, even though I am not.

B: I Iike Moton, so I will play for less than I am worth.  Let me call Burns and tell him to do the same.

Edited by MHS831
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4 hours ago, stbugs said:

Smith was a day 2 prospect if not for the medical concern.

I agree that Smith was tantalizing.  But his medical concerns were a huge uncertainty.  Blood clots are a very serious problem.   Who knows, maybe Carolina's physicians red flagged him ? 

In any case, if we drafted Smith then UDFA David Moore isn't here.  And I'm quite high on Moore.  I think there's a good chance he could stick on the practice squad this season and full roster next year.  

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

I puked in my mouth a little bit.

 

6 hours ago, stbugs said:

If we had taken Smith instead of taking a LS, I think we had some solid potential to work with and a better chance.

I don’t get why all of a sudden Moton is being shown the door. If Moton and Paradis are gone, the piece we have left over aren’t close to a good OL unless miraculously every player lives up to their potential.

Every year FAs get more money. That’s why we had a bargain for Cam for a few years and that’s why Dallas had to pay Dak so much and why Rodgers is being such a baby. Paying Moton top tackle is deserved and very easily affordable given the amount we are paying the other guys, especially if Paradis is gone.

Boggles my mind that people cry about OL every single year, even 2015 when we actually had a top 2 to 5 ranked OL, yet we seem satisfied with a 3rd rounder, 6th rounder and UDFA surrounding to cast off vets. Erving and Elflein aren’t anchors like when we had Norwell, Ryan and Turner anchoring the middle. Not even close.

Kungfu I believe you thought the 2020 OL was going to be ranked in the 30s, I predicted they would be mid-pack(alone as a remember).....and for the most part they did. Im not ready to make any sort claim with this current group, maybe after preseason games. Still the right side should be fine, as long as Moton is healthy. LG should be filled form big pool of able players. LT is where my HUGE questions are, still they *should be able to field 4 out 5 with at least average NFL players. That one is the big one tho. For me its TBD, need to see live game and real reports. 

St I can not disagree with adding Smith over a Long Safety....... as Ive said using draft picks on any STers is against my religion. If Im not ready to call 2021, no chance Im ready to call 2022. Moton seems to be the key, honestly to both seasons. Just the reports are he wants top LT money, thats a hard pass for me. Tag him again for a bargain and either play it out or trade him. 20+ million for ANY non-QB is a hard check to sign for me. Be like Dbrown wanting top DE money, tag and wait it out another year.....see if the agent comes down to earth...

Far as the 3 OLmen form the draft, I really reallly like the OGs Brown and Moore. This year maybe a red-shirt for both or one maybe starting mid-season. Could be the 2022 starters, just how well they adapt to Rhule/NFL/defenders. Both are strong and I do believe each will be out to prove a point. Christensen is unknown to me, dont hate him or have a solid opinion. I do have far more questions about him- he was 24 years, 4 years older than Sewell and most of his competition. 19 years old vs 24 there is a huge gap in everything, you should be dominating. My other big issue is his level of competition, I do not think any of the players he blocked(maybe one) will be drafted to in the NFL. He was never tested at all, well that is about to change and how he reacts to getting beat like a drum will determine if hes able to be a Wharton or Little type of player. Personally dont see him able to fill the LT spot, better fit as a OG(sight chance at RT), but he could prove that wrong.... 

Edited by Basbear
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15 minutes ago, BlitzMonster said:

I agree that Smith was tantalizing.  But his medical concerns were a huge uncertainty.  Blood clots are a very serious problem.   Who knows, maybe Carolina's physicians red flagged him ? 

In any case, if we drafted Smith then UDFA David Moore isn't here.  And I'm quite high on Moore.  I think there's a good chance he could stick on the practice squad this season and full roster next year.  

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Honestly, I liked Moore and Smith better than Brown in terms of NFL potential. I don’t see why we couldn’t have kept both Smith and Moore easily. We have so many throwaway guys on the roster right now it’s not funny.

I definitely get the medical concern but I wouldn’t be shocked at all to see him starting for KC. I still feel like OL is still the biggest concern we have. If we don’t keep Moton we have a big question mark at all 5 spots.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Honestly, I liked Moore and Smith better than Brown in terms of NFL potential. I don’t see why we couldn’t have kept both Smith and Moore easily. We have so many throwaway guys on the roster right now it’s not funny.

I definitely get the medical concern but I wouldn’t be shocked at all to see him starting for KC. I still feel like OL is still the biggest concern we have. If we don’t keep Moton we have a big question mark at all 5 spots.

I too was screaming for Smith, especially late rounds. I do understand if your 3 doctors all come up with the same conclusion- Pass. I did read up some about him, seems he did not practice with teammates much at all during the week. He was on blood liners most of his career and that does make injuries more risky. One concussion and your career could be over, G little had about 3 in a short time frame. He is going to get injured, blood flow is the key to healing. He is going to need to constant monitoring and one simple injury hes in danger. I know Bill Billcheat cut my guy Kevin Love cause he had diabetes. Love attacked it and got it under control and had a solid NFL after leaving them.  

Here is another tidbit about me- in the 7th I wanted a LB, bad. I didnt research much of the players after top 80 or so. But I did lots of mocks and one familiar name was still available. Jonathan Cooper was one of those LB/DE Reddick like players, team captain at OSU and put out great tape/stats. DRAFT HIM FINSEESER YOU COWARD!!! Turns out he has a heart issue and he going to miss some time(rookie camp otas etc). 

Edited by Basbear
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57 minutes ago, BlitzMonster said:

I agree that Smith was tantalizing.  But his medical concerns were a huge uncertainty.  Blood clots are a very serious problem.   Who knows, maybe Carolina's physicians red flagged him ? 

In any case, if we drafted Smith then UDFA David Moore isn't here.  And I'm quite high on Moore.  I think there's a good chance he could stick on the practice squad this season and full roster next year.  

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Unless he looks bad at camp (which I doubt) I wouldn't risk Moore to the practice squad, someone will sign him. Maybe inactive for a while before someone gets injured which usually takes 2 games with us. 

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10 minutes ago, Jackie Lee said:

Unless he looks bad at camp (which I doubt) I wouldn't risk Moore to the practice squad, someone will sign him. Maybe inactive for a while before someone gets injured which usually takes 2 games with us. 

Moore is a small school guy who's 2020 season was canceled.  So he's probably not NFL ready for a while.  I doubt a team will be willing to put him on the active roster if he's not likely to play right away.  

A few other G with his draft rating were also UDFA.  So it's not like Moore is something unique.  

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1 hour ago, Basbear said:

 

Kungfu I believe you thought the 2020 OL was going to be ranked in the 30s, I predicted they would be mid-pack(alone as a remember).....and for the most part they did. Im not ready to make any sort claim with this current group, maybe after preseason games. Still the right side should be fine, as long as Moton is healthy. LG should be filled form big pool of able players. LT is where my HUGE questions are, still they *should be able to field 4 out 5 with at least average NFL players. That one is the big one tho. For me its TBD, need to see live game and real reports. 

St I can not disagree with adding Smith over a Long Safety....... as Ive said using draft picks on any STers is against my religion. If Im not ready to call 2021, no chance Im ready to call 2022. Moton seems to be the key, honestly to both seasons. Just the reports are he wants top LT money, thats a hard pass for me. Tag him again for a bargain and either play it out or trade him. 20+ million for ANY non-QB is a hard check to sign for me. Be like Dbrown wanting top DE money, tag and wait it out another year.....see if the agent comes down to earth...

Far as the 3 OLmen form the draft, I really reallly like the OGs Brown and Moore. This year maybe a red-shirt for both or one maybe starting mid-season. Could be the 2022 starters, just how well they adapt to Rhule/NFL/defenders. Both are strong and I do believe each will be out to prove a point. Christensen is unknown to me, dont hate him or have a solid opinion. I do have far more questions about him- he was 24 years, 4 years older than Sewell and most of his competition. 19 years old vs 24 there is a huge gap in everything, you should be dominating. My other big issue is his level of competition, I do not think any of the players he blocked(maybe one) will be drafted to in the NFL. He was never tested at all, well that is about to change and how he reacts to getting beat like a drum will determine if hes able to be a Wharton or Little type of player. Personally dont see him able to fill the LT spot, better fit as a OG(sight chance at RT), but he could prove that wrong.... 

They were definitely better than I expected but I attribute that to a couple of things, the addition of Okung and also the Brady offense which revolved around getting rid of the ball quickly(Teddy actually deserves credit for this to, whether we want to give him credit or not).

Still, even "better" was in the 16 to 26 range, depending on what metric you are grading them by.

I am very skeptical of this version of our OL because I wasn't a big fan of our new free agents(basically backups, IMO...which we admittedly needed too) and I thought our attempts to upgrade in the draft were rather poor overall. But, if we can simply get 1-2 solid starters out of all these moves, it would make a huge difference in my thinking. 

I actually like Moore better than Brown. Brown is fuging ENORMOUS but he is probably gonna be a bit limited in what he can do overall because he isn't going to be able to move like anyone else on the line. Definitely don't expect to see him handle speed rushers well or be out on the edge pulling.

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42 minutes ago, Basbear said:

I too was screaming for Smith, especially late rounds. I do understand if your 3 doctors all come up with the same conclusion- Pass. I did read up some about him, seems he did not practice with teammates much at all during the week. He was on blood liners most of his career and that does make injuries more risky. One concussion and your career could be over, G little had about 3 in a short time frame. He is going to get injured, blood flow is the key to healing. He is going to need to constant monitoring and one simple injury hes in danger.

wow, that's actually a lot worse than I realized

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31 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

They were definitely better than I expected but I attribute that to a couple of things, the addition of Okung and also the Brady offense which revolved around getting rid of the ball quickly(Teddy actually deserves credit for this to, whether we want to give him credit or not).

Still, even "better" was in the 16 to 26 range, depending on what metric you are grading them by.

I am very skeptical of this version of our OL because I wasn't a big fan of our new free agents(basically backups, IMO...which we admittedly needed too) and I thought our attempts to upgrade in the draft were rather poor overall. But, if we can simply get 1-2 solid starters out of all these moves, it would make a huge difference in my thinking. 

I actually like Moore better than Brown. Brown is fuging ENORMOUS but he is probably gonna be a bit limited in what he can do overall because he isn't going to be able to move like anyone else on the line. Definitely don't expect to see him handle speed rushers well or be out on the edge pulling.

 

Bro I used 15 versions of "should", Im out the farthest out on the branch without fully putting on the homer glasses. I too did not care for Elf or Erving, both have put out AWFUL tape for the last three years(same for ginger cringer...). So I am in wait see mode, cause my current report would not be a nice one. My 4 out of 5 statement did not include either Elf or Erving(not for LT) btw, I have both on the bench for 2021..... You have every right to be skeptical, but I can not give the hope stamp like last year. My hope is Rhule and Pat can pull off a miracle or two.... Live game snaps in preseason games, before I make a prediction. Plus fyi dont put too much stock into Brown looking bad in 1 on 1 drills, a OG always has someone to their right and left.....those drills always make C/OGs look bad. OL play as 1, not 1 vs 1 too.  

I can give you some hope for Brown @stbugs included. If you havnt seen Brown pulling or showing max effort check this out- 

 https://twitter.com/colecubelic/status/1060295663194390528

 

Could be Im high on hopium, but I believe both Moore and Brown will be focused on proving the doubters wrong. My main hopes for each is in 2022 tho, but that happen sooner. 

 

 

 

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On 5/8/2021 at 4:55 PM, MHS831 said:

Just trying to keep some fresh perspective on the Huddle folks.  Not trying to be an expert, but I am not interested in the fact that Juston Burris is considering changing his shoe size or that the Boston Celtics offered us a future pick to move up for a guard.  This is real, and you can almost see the plan unfolding.

 

This something I have mentioned in passing once or twice myself and it's one of the reason I strongly support the trade downs we did for more draft picks and hope we continue drafting in this way to some degree or other depending on roster needs. One mistake we, and most other teams too, have always made is resigning good players for more than they were worth. It's an easy trap to fall into. If a player is really good you want to keep them. If you have nothing waiting behind them then you "have" to resign them. This is how teams get into cap trouble. Especially when those players are getting older and especially at certain positions where injuries are common as the player reaches a certain age. Everyone knows that depth is important when a starter gets injured during the season. But it's also important when it's time to resign players. No team can afford to overpay everyone on their rosters so teams must make a list of players value to the team and not just their ability. We should list 2-3 players as "must keep" and pay them accordingly. If/when we have to resign a player who isn't a "must have" and they ask too much, we must be able to let that player go and replace them with the next man up. It will be even better when we reach a point where we are able to anticipate that situation a year before it arises to trade those players for assets whether it's other players or draft  picks. Even if the next man up isn't as good but is good enough it will allow the team to keep the overall team level up. Having 2 or 3 good players is better than having 1 great player and 1 or 2 average players A team should only pay a player top money if that player is essential to the success of your team and if they are only a piece then the team would be better off finding another piece.  

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20 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

The level of dumb homerism in this thread with zero knowledge behind it is amazing.

Fair enough. But that's a very general statement without much in the way of supporting arguments. So, please educate us all by explaining exactly who was on our OL last season that isn't on the roster this season and was so good that the possibility that any of these new additions couldn't possibly match their level of play is "dumb homerism" and why. I'm more than willing to consider your point of view if you can support it with an explanation. 

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