Reasons for cautious optimism?

[Basbear]

5 minutes ago, micnificent28 said:

Humm just for argument sake are we saying Mayfield as a prospect is more talented than Kerry Collins... Because the evaluator in me would say no.

Yes. Its very hard to say how Collins would do in this era.....I know he'd get woke canceled.....Plus he always had a long delivery. Baker is more athletic and smarter.    

[Icege]

53 minutes ago, rayzor said:

Has he shown he can do it yet?

I'm not saying the dude is going to have the mythical year three that he's had twice before, but would it even matter? Y'all both just said that any success this team might have you're not going to give credit to Rhule but rather chalk it to him not getting in the way.

[micnificent28]

52 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I would.

Collins had great size for a quarterback but I'd give Mayfield the edge in talent.

I think baker is better on the move I don't this his arm and accuracy is as good.

[Panthers Rhule]

5 hours ago, Sgt Schultz said:

My guess is if they hit 8 wins and don't look awful in the losses, Rhule returns.

I would classify my position as suspicious optimism.  Yes, the roster is better on paper, but the games are not played on paper.  We've been down this road pretty much every year after 2015, which is the last time the results warranted the optimism).

Here is my problem up until now:  Rhule is paid roughly $8.5M a year.  That is John Harbaugh and Andy Reid money.  Rhule is seventh on the list of highest paid coaches this year.  Reid and Tomlin actually make slight less.  Reich, Harbaugh, Shanahan, Carroll, Hoodie, and McVay all make more. 

Each of those ahead of him or in the same neighborhood have shown some ability to coach teams to wins.  That is, steal games that should have been lost because they outschemed the opponent.  Rhule is the guy who is outschemed.  I don't know at this point if that can be learned for him. 

I think, based on what we have seen, Rhule and Tepper are both "org chart guys."  You know the kind, when they come in the first thing they do is "redraw the org chart."  That does not mean people are immediately sent packing, the structure just changes.  We've seen organizations of all sorts that were so poorly defined that they would inevitably fail, and one could argue the Panthers were an organization so poorly defined that they could never fully succeed.  The problem is "org chart guys" will redraw the org chart no matter what, and judge success or failure based on that how pretty that is to them because "it will inevitably lead to results" rather than the organization's actual results at its mission.

The reason I have that suspicion actually goes back to how the Bridgewater criticism was handled.  They never openly acknowledged that they needed to work on the criticisms he raise, which were accurate.  Instead, they (including the owner) circled the wagons to protect the organization and shot the messenger.  How many times in my 60+ years have I seen that, and I don't think I have ever seen an organization that did it succeed at their mission. 

If Rhule lets the people around him do their jobs and loses the "process" nonsense, the team can get to those 8 wins or maybe even a little more, and probably not look completely clueless in the process.  The best case is we chalk up 2021 to "sh1t happens" and move forward.

Then the debate can begin about whether a coach getting paid $8.5M a year and his best case is to stay out of the way is going to get us anywhere. 

First of all let me say that this is an excellent post. Very thoughtful with many good points. I absolutely agree with your opening about Rhule and Tepper being "org chart guys". I can definitely see that and I agree with you. 

However, after that I begin to see things from a different angle. I'm not saying you're wrong as I don't know yet but I would like to share my perception. 

First, as for Bridgewater, I don't care about that. All orgs protect the org. 

If Rhule isn't forced to do people's jobs then I don't think he will. He doesn't interfere with Snow and I see no reason why he should with McAdoo. 

As for his pay and that coaches' list I'd say that each one of those coaches have a playoff roster first of all, and the others either have or can recruit a good QB each season. The Panthers had none of those when Rhule arrived. I can see the Roster coming along nicely and my hopes are high for Baker. I believe in him. When I judge Rhule I look at those things for now. 

Yes, we need to see it on the field I agree but I also think we are doing things in the right way. The progress of players like Luvu, Christianson, Shi, and also Baker with how fast things have gone. He looked ok to be so soon. I see good coaching when I see this. It's not all Rhule but he is the HC so it's his process and he has good staff now I believe. 

He is obviously in a much better place going into this season and it shows. I think this season is going to be fun again. 

[mc52beast]

I hate being optimistic about this team because they always let me down but I’m excited about this season. We have a legit NFL staff, we have a much better QB1, we have a much better o-line, a decent RB2, multiple weapons at WR.

I have to admit I’m worried about the D. Burns will be getting doubled constantly unless someone else breaks out, I’m not sure we’ll be able to stop the run up front and our LBers are questionable minus Shaq.

[Sgt Schultz]

1 hour ago, Panthers Rhule said:

He is obviously in a much better place going into this season and it shows. I think this season is going to be fun again. 

Someone will probably report us for handling disagreements in a civil, rational manner.  We'll probably both be banned from the internet soon.  So, here may be my last post.  But I digress.

What I cut and highlighted would be a major step forward.  Rhule lost me last season, and your last sentence is more or less the benchmark for getting me back.  In a perfect world we would be a playoff team, which is where we should be in year 3.  Of course, I am yet to see a perfect world in this or anything.

If people are mentioning us in the same conversation with playoff picture (without laughing) as we start shopping for the Holidays, and we are competitive even when we lose, I won't be sold on Rhule but I will go from head shaking to shrugging my shoulders. 

Oh, and I don't start Holiday shopping in October, despite what the stores might want.  Or before Thanksgiving for that matter.

[onmyown]

11 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

 If he fails this season it won't be for lack of effort. 

 

That’s a problem.

Edited September 6, 2022 by onmyown

[rayzor]

3 hours ago, Icege said:

I'm not saying the dude is going to have the mythical year three that he's had twice before, but would it even matter? Y'all both just said that any success this team might have you're not going to give credit to Rhule but rather chalk it to him not getting in the way.

If he had the same coaching staff as before and got better, it would be easier to give him credit. He now has a better coaching staff around him. Better coaching overall has to be the result of the better coaches being brought in, correct? Who else should the credit go to? Should Rhule get the coaching credit for the better coaches he brought in? 

And I think that's a good thing if he does step aside and let the others do their job. Makes him a better leader. Like I've said before, the best leaders builds a team of leaders under him who do their individual jobs better than you would be able to. You come up with a macro-plan and give direction and focus and inspiration and you get out of the way.

When things start to derail or the goal isn't getting met, then you step back in and get their heads right and redirect. You adapt and you help your team adapt.

When things go right, you give them the credit they deserve and you don't. They do the work, you make sure they do it right.

if things ultimately don't work, then it's on you for either not getting the right members of the team or giving them the direction or not adapting as needed. 

[poundaway]

1 hour ago, rayzor said:

Should Rhule get the coaching credit for the better coaches he brought in? 

 

He certainly got the blame when his previous coaches sucked.

[rayzor]

5 minutes ago, poundaway said:

He certainly got the blame when his previous coaches sucked.

Yes he did, and like I said, he should have. His job is to get the right guys in here to carry out a winning strategy that can adapt when things go south.

If things didn't go right either the plan sucks or the coaches sucked...or both. My vote is both. And both are ultimately his fault.

[poundaway]

39 minutes ago, rayzor said:

Yes he did, and like I said, he should have. His job is to get the right guys in here to carry out a winning strategy that can adapt when things go south.

If things didn't go right either the plan sucks or the coaches sucked...or both. My vote is both. And both are ultimately his fault.

So does that mean Rhule  gets the credit for the better coaches he brought in? 

Edited September 6, 2022 by poundaway

[Ezrider1423]

17 hours ago, Icege said:

I'm fairly certain that even if the win column is showing what the fans want that people are going to deny Rhule's involvement. If anything, they'll write him off as finally staying out of the way, being carried by his coaching staff, carried by his players, etc.

Yep

[Ezrider1423]

17 hours ago, rayzor said:

He's done nothing that would prove us wrong. 

Do you expect him to win 10 games from the jump? And do that for 10 plus years?  Who comes in and honestly just wins off the bat and just maintains it and gets better? That means we’d have to win about 10 plus games every single year but even then, I think you’d probably still bitch.. when they finally do get to the top of the mountain, it will be that much sweeter.  Keep your bandwagon close by so you don’t hurt yourself trying to jump back on board.  

Edited September 6, 2022 by Ezrider1423

[Ezrider1423]

6 hours ago, poundaway said:

So does that mean Rhule  gets the credit for the better coaches he brought in? 

Rhule gets and will get no credit for anything good that happens here.  But he gets all the blame for everything terrible.  He’s a first time nfl head coach. Let the dude and his players try and figure it out.. and if they can’t, change will come 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Ezrider1423