Brian Burns has more sacks than any other player in NFL history under 25 years old

[mav1234]

10 minutes ago, Smithers said:

People around here complain about anything, doesn’t mean Burns wasn’t used lol.  He has seen a ton of field time.  I’d argue this year he’s on the field more than most DEs.  Yet he has never had double digit sacks (should this year I assume).  
 

my main issue with Burns are all the plays he doesn’t make.  The man has so many missed tackles, whiffs, and poor angles that it is maddening.  He simply is not a consistent, 3 down player.  

1) I don't agree RE: on the field more than other DEs. E.g. other DEs that are in the top 10 in sacks this year for DEs have similar percentage of time on the field (Z Smith ~80% of snaps when starting but is kinda a mix DE OLB, Bosa ~80% of snaps when starting, Garrett ~80 of snaps when starting, Crosby >80% when starting). Burns is at 77%, 75%, and 84% of snaps when starting - right in that range.

2) On missed tackles, Burns has DRASTICALLY improved that this year. His missed tackle percentage is down to 4.3%, less than or similar to Crosby (6%), Smith (7%), Bosa (0% this year, but 5.5% last year - dude is a BEAST), Garrett (4.3%, same as Burns).  Still an area IMO he can get better at though.

I think this year, Burns has been a consistent three down player. His tackles, hurries, TFL, are all way up.

I'm not saying he is as good as Garrett or Bosa, btw. And like I said, once that 2nd rounder this year was added, I probably trade him.  But I think this year, Burns has been significantly better than some fans give him credit for. He's become much more than JUST a pass rush specialist.

Edited November 11, 2022 by mav1234

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

Why can you not compare the two when they play the same position and have the same responsibilities (rush the passer, defend the run)?  Can we not say for example that Brian Burns is a better DE than Yetur Gross-Matos simply because they are two different types of DEs?  Can we not say Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Mac Jones because their QB style is different?  I can acknowledge two players are different while also being able to acknowledge whether one is more impactful and playing at a higher level.  If you're comparing two different players at two different positions, then yeah I'd agree with you that it's tricky to directly compare the two.

Not all DEs function similarly. Not just in a 3-4 versus a 4-3 but responsibilities. For example if your primary job is rushing the passer with your hand in the dirt and you come from the same spot you get different results from someone who plays standing up, plays inside or out and has different responsibilities in different sets.  Not only rushing the QB but playing  in the secondary for example.  Teams that blitz linebackers get more sacks than a team that rarely blitzes so should sacks be considered in isolation or in context to your duties.  So in general even two guys who play the same position may have different responsibilities. Add other factors such as how much help do you get from teammates so you aren't the focus of the offense but one piece of the puzzle versus the only decent player on the team that teams can game plan for or against.  Comparing players in a 1 gap penetrating scheme versus those in a 2 gap read and respond scheme may not be comparable for sacks for example. So no all players at a position are not used the same and therefore aren't universally comparable.

[1of10Charnatives]

1 minute ago, panthers55 said:

Not all DEs function similarly. Not just in a 3-4 versus a 4-3 but responsibilities. For example if your primary job is rushing the passer with your hand in the dirt and you come from the same spot you get different results from someone who plays standing up, plays inside or out and has different responsibilities in different sets.  Not only rushing the QB but playing  in the secondary for example.  Teams that blitz linebackers get more sacks than a team that rarely blitzes so should sacks be considered in isolation or in context to your duties.  So in general even two guys who play the same position may have different responsibilities. Add other factors such as how much help do you get from teammates so you aren't the focus of the offense but one piece of the puzzle versus the only decent player on the team that teams can game plan for or against.  Comparing players in a 1 gap penetrating scheme versus those in a 2 gap read and respond scheme may not be comparable for sacks for example. So no all players at a position are not used the same and therefore aren't universally comparable.

*points to article 4 subsection 42 of the Huddle Code of Conduct where it very clearly states No Nuance.*

[MasterAwesome]

29 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Not all DEs function similarly. Not just in a 3-4 versus a 4-3 but responsibilities. For example if your primary job is rushing the passer with your hand in the dirt and you come from the same spot you get different results from someone who plays standing up, plays inside or out and has different responsibilities in different sets.  Not only rushing the QB but playing  in the secondary for example.  Teams that blitz linebackers get more sacks than a team that rarely blitzes so should sacks be considered in isolation or in context to your duties.  So in general even two guys who play the same position may have different responsibilities. Add other factors such as how much help do you get from teammates so you aren't the focus of the offense but one piece of the puzzle versus the only decent player on the team that teams can game plan for or against.  Comparing players in a 1 gap penetrating scheme versus those in a 2 gap read and respond scheme may not be comparable for sacks for example. So no all players at a position are not used the same and therefore aren't universally comparable.

You’re technically not wrong but you realize this type of broad reasoning would mean you can’t ever compare any player against any other player on any team? Tom Brady in his prime can’t be compared to Jimmy Clausen because they played in different systems and had different supporting casts and were asked to do different things in executing their respective gameplans etc.

I’m genuinely curious - is that actually your argument? That we can’t confidently say that Tom Brady in his prime was a better QB than Jimmy Clausen? Or what am I missing here?

[Catsfan69]

One of his main problems among many is the fact he doesn't get in a Jet Stance on obvious passing downs.

This is 100 percent limiting his sack production. 

[CRA]

Sort of a bogus stat. 

Burns is in year 4 and there are guys that that had more sacks than him currently through just 3 seasons. 

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

You’re technically not wrong but you realize this type of broad reasoning would mean you can’t ever compare any player against any other player on any team? Tom Brady in his prime can’t be compared to Jimmy Clausen because they played in different systems and had different supporting casts and were asked to do different things in executing their respective gameplans etc.

I’m genuinely curious - is that actually your argument? That we can’t confidently say that Tom Brady in his prime was a better QB than Jimmy Clausen? Or what am I missing here?

You're  missing the point completely.  If you have a qb who plays in a WCO with 70% of his passes being essentially less than 5 yards you get a higher completion percentage than someone playing in a more downfield Coryell system with the majority of throws more than 15 yards. So who is playing better using completion percentage  as your measure? What about measuring YPC versus YPA - the difference totally changes the answer. You are the one morphing  the "better"  concept with your extreme comparisons of quarterbacks. I said you can't easily compare players at the same position on a stat like sacks unless they played in a similar scheme with similar opportunities and responsibilities. So Burns and Bosa play in different systems with different schemes and respinsibilities. So determing who is playing better depends on what you measure. That is a far cry from whatever you are trying to morph this into.

[Bigdaddy8523]

Now we need him to stop over running plays and make tackles behind the LOS. He does that and he can become bigger than Peppers was.

[panthers55]

2 minutes ago, Bigdaddy8523 said:

Now we need him to stop over running plays and make tackles behind the LOS. He does that and he can become bigger than Peppers was.

Good point. He still tries to go inside too often and doesn't hold his gap responsibility leaving big holes and contributing to the idea he can't  play the run. He needs to be more disciplined and not try to sell out to get pressure on every down.

[KSpan]

3 hours ago, Smithers said:

Uhhh - Burns has started nearly every game in his NFL career.  He’s a 4 year starter 

He was not a starter in 2019. Would be interesting to know what situations he played that year.

Edited November 12, 2022 by KSpan

[pantherj]

So fans want Burns to have a mega contract. And Brown should get payed a huge deal as well? And you want Chinn to get payed as well? Donte Jackson will get 14.5 million next season and the season after unless he is restructured. We have a defense that got owned by the Bungles to the tune of 42 points, and they could have scored 50+ if they wanted to do so. All the while we have no proper QB. Yep we're going to be terrible for a very long time with this blueprint. Even the draft rewards for losing won't pull us out of this because we're doing things ass backwards.

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

You're  missing the point completely.  If you have a qb who plays in a WCO with 70% of his passes being essentially less than 5 yards you get a higher completion percentage than someone playing in a more downfield Coryell system with the majority of throws more than 15 yards. So who is playing better using completion percentage  as your measure? What about measuring YPC versus YPA - the difference totally changes the answer. You are the one morphing  the "better"  concept with your extreme comparisons of quarterbacks. I said you can't easily compare players at the same position on a stat like sacks unless they played in a similar scheme with similar opportunities and responsibilities. So Burns and Bosa play in different systems with different schemes and respinsibilities. So determing who is playing better depends on what you measure. That is a far cry from whatever you are trying to morph this into.

Are you under the impression that I ever argued that Bosa is better than Burns simply because his sack numbers are better? The only reason I brought up their sack numbers was in response to the guy who initially brought them up to argue that their career production is equivalent, while ignoring that one played 16 more games than the other. That was never the crux of my argument. That was the crux of his argument which was extremely flawed.

But humor me this: you brought up the completion percentage example for QBs as something that one QB might be statistically superior in that doesn’t mean he’s a better QB. Well what would you say is one area or statistic that Burns is superior than Bosa in? Durability maybe, but I can’t think of anything else as far as on-the-field performance. You can say something like he has a quicker first step or is more explosive or point to something athletically but if that doesn’t translate into superior performance on the field then that’s kinda a pointless thing to hang your hat on.

[BrianS]

Hopefully someone has already pointed out what a made up stat this is.  Using age as the marker is silly.  Look at seasons played.

By the end of his fourth season, Peppers had 40.5 sacks.

By the end of his fourth season, Reggie White had 70 sacks.

By the end of his fourth season, JJ Watt had 57 sacks.

By the end of his fourth season, Myles Garrett had 42.5 sacks.

By the end of his fourth season, Von Miller had 49 sacks.

If Burns continues his current pace to the end of the season it will be his best season on record, and he'll finish in double digits for the first time with 12.  And he'll still be behind all of those guys.

He's good, not great.  He has "great" in him, but he won't get there.  Not with us as a DE.  I'd be terrified of him in a Steelers shirt, because he'd be an OLB.

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

Are you under the impression that I ever argued that Bosa is better than Burns simply because his sack numbers are better? The only reason I brought up their sack numbers was in response to the guy who initially brought them up to argue that their career production is equivalent, while ignoring that one played 16 more games than the other. That was never the crux of my argument. That was the crux of his argument which was extremely flawed.

But humor me this: you brought up the completion percentage example for QBs as something that one QB might be statistically superior in that doesn’t mean he’s a better QB. Well what would you say is one area or statistic that Burns is superior than Bosa in? Durability maybe, but I can’t think of anything else as far as on-the-field performance. You can say something like he has a quicker first step or is more explosive or point to something athletically but if that doesn’t translate into superior performance on the field then that’s kinda a pointless thing to hang your hat on.

I never said Burns was better than Bosa. You really are slow.  You never got my point. Just proves I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.