"Bryce Young needs superstars to be successful"

[NAS]

Just now, GoobyPls said:

Yesterday wasn’t on the WR, even on the completed passes Bryce was getting hit. He had no time to go trough his progressions, on that Chark deep pass he couldn’t step into the throw cause there was a guy right there

100%.  He had to release it early

[gmonjimbo]

One or the other has to give. I think this receiving core is average to below average. If the offensive line was middle of the pack, then it's doable

However, you can't have both a below average receiving room and below average offensive line.

Honestly, if they acquire a WR on the caliber of Tyler Lockett as no.1, keep Thielen in the slot, and Christensen and Corbett return to full strength will pay dividends for the offense. 

[ForJimmy]

4 minutes ago, CRA said:

Most need them.  A prime Cam, Lamar, Vick type can win without them.   The more untraditional types. 

and then the elite GOAT types QBs can win without them.  Like a prime Tom Brady, Rodgers could likely win games without superstars.  But in the NFL, most need them. 

and that's just winning games.  Not competing to do something special. 

The argument a rookie Bryce Young of all people didn't or doesn't need them is a comical farce IMO.  Which was pointed out by many leading into this season when people where pimping this Panther PR about how it was going to work to our advantage somehow lol. 

QBs that can make plays strictly with their legs can make due with subpar talent around them, but that is very temporary.  Cam short career, Vick couldn't stay healthy, Lamar has had an injury bug lately so they are trying to surround him with better talent which is the right thing to do.

Brady and Rogers typically had elite OLs and when they didn't they struggled (relatively speaking).  Rodgers started getting banged up with his OL got injured and of course this year without an elite group of blockers.  Rodgers also had Adams for a while and Brady had Gronk (later part of his career), Brady's Tampa team was pretty loaded and Rodgers was trying to do the same with that Jets team.  They realize they need the talent around them to really make a run.  Mahomes could be another one outside of Kelce he hasn't been working with much since Hill left.  Maybe we just need an elite TE for Young?  Gronk for Brady, Andrews for Lamar, Olsen for Cam, Kelce for Mahomes, Kittle for Purdy seem to go a long way. 

I agree with your last paragraph 100%.  

[Waldo]

Anyway you look at it Bryce needs excellence everywhere around him to play average. Yes he can be carried in that situation but it's also such an exhausting expectation, especially given the current abilities of the staff to find, keep and cultivate talent.  

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

QBs that can make plays strictly with their legs can make due with subpar talent around them, but that is very temporary.  Cam short career, Vick couldn't stay healthy, Lamar has had an injury bug lately so they are trying to surround him with better talent which is the right thing to do.

Brady and Rogers typically had elite OLs and when they didn't they struggled (relatively speaking).  Rodgers started getting banged up with his OL got injured and of course this year without an elite group of blockers.  Rodgers also had Adams for a while and Brady had Gronk (later part of his career), Brady's Tampa team was pretty loaded and Rodgers was trying to do the same with that Jets team.  They realize they need the talent around them to really make a run.  Mahomes could be another one outside of Kelce he hasn't been working with much since Hill left.  Maybe we just need an elite TE for Young?  Gronk for Brady, Andrews for Lamar, Olsen for Cam, Kelce for Mahomes, Kittle for Purdy seem to go a long way. 

I agree with your last paragraph 100%.  

never was implying it was a good plan but you can give certain select few weak talent and not suck.  That's not and never has been Bryce Young. 

and that's also why Bryce Young isn't the problem. The Panthers are.  Tepper was literally bragging about taking Bryce Young to save money and not have superstars on O.   Bryce Young isn't and doesn't project to be one of those anomalies. He doesn't know football.  He doesn't even have idiot message board level football IQ IMO. 

[ForJimmy]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

never was implying it was a good plan but you can give certain select few weak talent and not suck.  That's not and never has been Bryce Young. 

and that's also why Bryce Young isn't the problem. The Panthers are.  Tepper was literally bragging about taking Bryce Young to save money and not have superstars on O.   Bryce Young isn't and doesn't project to be one of those anomalies. He doesn't know football.  He doesn't even have idiot message board level football IQ IMO. 

I agree.  They keep trying to do a quick fix and unfortunately there isn't one.  Trading away picks and turning down great offers for players when our roster is no one near ready has shown to be very short sighted.  The latest is throwing a rookie QB out there and seeing if he can save this offense that's stripped away of most of it's talent.  

[BrianS]

Disclaimer:  Bryce is our guy for at least this year and next.  At that point, if he's still the same guy he is today, he'll become our backup QB as we draft our new guy for our new coach.  That said . . . 

To me, this is a terrible argument.  "He needs more around him".    If a guy is good enough to trade away your future, he better be the guy that elevates the team around him.

For the folks who say "He needs time to throw" . . . well here are 11 guys who have been sacked more often, generally hurried more often, blitzed more often and had more balls dropped.

Here's another way to look at something similar, look at all these guys with LESS pocket time that Bryce.  Now, to be clear, the definition of pocket time here is one I really like.  It's time in the pocket before pressure OR before throwing the ball.  It puts equal weight on the QB making quick decisions and the line protecting.

To all the folks who say "He needs an offense designed around his arm", I'm blacking out all the guys with less than 30 attempts, but using the same sort order as above.  Now we're looking at downfield throw numbers.  Bear in mind these are ATTEMPTS, not completions.

No one in the league has fewer downfield attempts than Bryce.  It's not because he has so much less time.  It's an impossibility that our staff don't know this.  They know it.  They understand what it is doing to our offense.  Look no further than Andy Dalton.  The Red Rifle has nearly as many 20+ throws (7) in ONE GAME as Bryce has all season (8) . . . IN OUR OFFENSE.

The bottom line is that Bryce is not NFL ready right now.  He needs to sit.  He needs to watch Dalton operate the offense.  To understand how quickly decisions need to be made.  BY still has plenty of time to prove that he can be the guy before heads roll.  But the other 50+ guys on that roster deserve a chance to compete.

 

[weyco2000]

49 minutes ago, BrianS said:

Disclaimer:  Bryce is our guy for at least this year and next.  At that point, if he's still the same guy he is today, he'll become our backup QB as we draft our new guy for our new coach.  That said . . . 

To me, this is a terrible argument.  "He needs more around him".    If a guy is good enough to trade away your future, he better be the guy that elevates the team around him.

For the folks who say "He needs time to throw" . . . well here are 11 guys who have been sacked more often, generally hurried more often, blitzed more often and had more balls dropped.

Here's another way to look at something similar, look at all these guys with LESS pocket time that Bryce.  Now, to be clear, the definition of pocket time here is one I really like.  It's time in the pocket before pressure OR before throwing the ball.  It puts equal weight on the QB making quick decisions and the line protecting.

To all the folks who say "He needs an offense designed around his arm", I'm blacking out all the guys with less than 30 attempts, but using the same sort order as above.  Now we're looking at downfield throw numbers.  Bear in mind these are ATTEMPTS, not completions.

No one in the league has fewer downfield attempts than Bryce.  It's not because he has so much less time.  It's an impossibility that our staff don't know this.  They know it.  They understand what it is doing to our offense.  Look no further than Andy Dalton.  The Red Rifle has nearly as many 20+ throws (7) in ONE GAME as Bryce has all season (8) . . . IN OUR OFFENSE.

The bottom line is that Bryce is not NFL ready right now.  He needs to sit.  He needs to watch Dalton operate the offense.  To understand how quickly decisions need to be made.  BY still has plenty of time to prove that he can be the guy before heads roll.  But the other 50+ guys on that roster deserve a chance to compete.

 

Great breakdown.

[NAS]

1 hour ago, BrianS said:

For the folks who say "He needs time to throw" . . . well here are 11 guys who have been sacked more often, generally hurried more often, blitzed more often and had more balls dropped

So you're blaming Bryce for throwing the ball away instead of taking a sack.

yes he needs more time to throw because his receivers have below average separation and need more time to get open. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by NAS

[Wundrbread33]

Before we just needed an average QB. Now that CMC and Moore are gone, now we just need average weapons. 

 

All the while we just wanted average coaching. 
 

From where I’m sitting, I don’t think any of it is average. 

 

Beating a dead horse…but Tepper really didn’t settle for mediocrity after all. 

[BrianS]

33 minutes ago, NAS said:

So you're blaming Bryce for throwing the ball away instead of taking a sack.

yes he needs more time to throw because his receivers have below average separation and need more time to get open. 

Our receivers are SLIGHTLY below average by NFL standards.  Not massively, not even considerably.  Just slightly.  The NFL averages about 3 yards of separation.  Our top 5 receivers average 2.74 yards.  Is the difference between success and failure:  9 inches of separation?  That's the hill we want to take a stand on?

Think of it this way.  What if our WR corps was George Pickens, Cooper Kupp, DJ Moore, Kyle Pitts and Stefon Diggs.  Would Bryce be out of excuses then?  I daresay he would be.  He would also be throwing to receivers with 2.34 yards of average separation.  Far less than we have now.

Bryce needs to sit and learn.  He's not one of the ones who comes in and lights it up.  We have ample evidence of this fact now.  That may be ok long term.  But there are a lot of guys in the locker room who want to win, and Bryce can't get us there right now.

[mrcompletely11]

3 hours ago, BrianS said:

Disclaimer:  Bryce is our guy for at least this year and next.  At that point, if he's still the same guy he is today, he'll become our backup QB as we draft our new guy for our new coach.  That said . . . 

To me, this is a terrible argument.  "He needs more around him".    If a guy is good enough to trade away your future, he better be the guy that elevates the team around him.

For the folks who say "He needs time to throw" . . . well here are 11 guys who have been sacked more often, generally hurried more often, blitzed more often and had more balls dropped.

Here's another way to look at something similar, look at all these guys with LESS pocket time that Bryce.  Now, to be clear, the definition of pocket time here is one I really like.  It's time in the pocket before pressure OR before throwing the ball.  It puts equal weight on the QB making quick decisions and the line protecting.

To all the folks who say "He needs an offense designed around his arm", I'm blacking out all the guys with less than 30 attempts, but using the same sort order as above.  Now we're looking at downfield throw numbers.  Bear in mind these are ATTEMPTS, not completions.

No one in the league has fewer downfield attempts than Bryce.  It's not because he has so much less time.  It's an impossibility that our staff don't know this.  They know it.  They understand what it is doing to our offense.  Look no further than Andy Dalton.  The Red Rifle has nearly as many 20+ throws (7) in ONE GAME as Bryce has all season (8) . . . IN OUR OFFENSE.

The bottom line is that Bryce is not NFL ready right now.  He needs to sit.  He needs to watch Dalton operate the offense.  To understand how quickly decisions need to be made.  BY still has plenty of time to prove that he can be the guy before heads roll.  But the other 50+ guys on that roster deserve a chance to compete.

 

wow, truly eye opening

[45catfan]

Hated both the TMJ and Mingo picks.  What do I know though?

[mrcompletely11]

Just now, 45catfan said:

Hated both the TMJ and Mingo picks.  What do I know though?

the whole picking an injured TMJ just to spite the saints always seemed pretty moronic to me