Hey You, You Don't Know Quarterbacking

[strato]

11 minutes ago, cranky said:

You guys are soooo sensitive. 

Pretty sure the OP wasn't posting a "Bryce-is-really-good-if-he-had-a-team thread". 

poo has been constant since that trade was made in 2023. Long time.
Every camel’s back has its limits 

[TD alt]

11 minutes ago, cranky said:

You guys are soooo sensitive. 

Pretty sure the OP wasn't posting a "Bryce-is-really-good-if-he-had-a-team thread". 

So you say...

Funny how you say "you guys..."

This entire thread is arguably based on sensitivity...

[cranky]

17 minutes ago, TD alt said:

So you say...

Funny how you say "you guys..."

This entire thread is arguably based on sensitivity...

Point is the OP never said anything about Bryce being good if he had some talent around him. That was all you.

[outlaw4]

13 hours ago, fieryprophet said:

What's up gents, the OGs remember me, the guy who single-handedly gave the Panthers the greatest uniform in history moniker. Not too long after that I got involved with Pro Football Focus (pre-Collinsworth acquisition) and ended up taking backseat here to preserve some objectivity. But from a distance I noticed a lot.

After the end of the Cam era this place devolved into the most un-fun, petty, negative cesspool of whining and bitching that has ever graced the internet. The worst part of it all is that the level of discussion turned into the most ill-informed, hot-take, unnuanced crap, rife with people talking out of their posteriors as if they have any clue about what they are watching. Once you get into the professional side of the sport and actual film rooms, you start to understand there's an absurd number of moving parts to pretty much every snap and the details you are privy to are truly only half the picture.

The absolute most important thing I learned from being part of professional level football analysis is that quarterbacking is literally the most intricate and difficult position in all of professional sports, and that the NFL itself is struggling to develop any workable model that allows them to understand what makes one succeed vs what makes one fail. Because of this paradox it has also made the quarterback position itself grossly overvalued from a fan and media standpoint, creating an absurd fixation on the results delivered by a single player who has to rely on the contributions of everyone around them. This also drives the dreaded inflation of QB salaries that inevitably cause even elite teams to lose key talent all to pour cash into the one player supposed to be able to single-handedly elevate the entire team (and defense and special teams and coaching and ownership by some mysterious proxy), yet without those same players even talented teams can wander the wilderness searching for the right guy to take advantage of their talent window.

The discussions the last few years around Bryce has personified this insanity, as this board has devolved into some sort of electronic civil war between the hyperbolic Young supporters and the vitriolic Bryce haters. The reality, like practically everything in this world, is somewhere in the middle. He has traits that can absolutely elevate a team with creativity, play recognition, off-arm angle throws, mental toughness, etc. He's also physically limited, with mostly "good-enough" qualities for most situations that a professional quarterback is asked to do, and will never be an overpowering physical force like pre-injury Cam. But "good-enough" physicality represents a large majority of championship-winning quarterbacks, even in the modern era. There's a reason the corpse of Peyton Manning took the chip from elite physical specimen Cam, because the team surrounding him was talented enough to get him there, while we all know Cam was the driving force of that 2015 team. That's no knock on him, that's just how the game of football tends to work: the more complete team usually wins.

The summary is this: if this team lives or dies solely on the performance of its quarterback, then it is absolutely a paper tiger even if he plays brilliantly week in and out. There are no superheroes in this sport, there are only conduits that proxy the collective efforts of much of the team around them. And no one alive can tell you how the position is played perfectly, it's all a confluence of circumstance and what unique collection of traits each player brings to the position, which can never be truly recreated season after season, even for the same player on the same team.

If this place remains a raging hellscape of idiotic hot takes I will happily remove myself again and do something more productive for yet another decade, but maybe's there hope that we can all get back to the old adage, and keep pounding.

First off, my memory is faulty and so I should remember you. Anyways, welcome back.

Having been around here since 2004/2005, I do have to say all these hot takes are not necessary new. I still very much remember all the constant complaints about Jake Delhomme. How he was too inaccurate, fumbled the ball too often, threw bad interceptions, and how Steve Smith deserved a better QB. How this franchise needed to replace Jake for someone better because he dragged everyone down. We even had names for Jake defenders; Blind Delhomme Jock Sniffers (BDJS). That one thread about Chris Weinke over Jake Delhomme because Weinke threw for 423 Yards but only scoring 13 points remains the worst hot takes I've ever seen around here.

So to me, it feels like history repeating itself again and I don't feel like getting that much involved in flame wars like I used to. I am more of a sit back and see what the players/team does type of person. And even then, yes, there are so many moving parts that it's not as easy to pinpoint the core issues, especially when you're not inside the building and know every single detail. 

And yes, I think even way back then, I hated how overvalued the QB position was and it hasn't gotten much better. It's to where my philosophy has shifted to where if you can't win a SB with a QB on their rookie contract, you might as well get another one. Otherwise, you have to give that QB so much money that the rest of the roster suffers and your window becomes quite narrow.  That's why I'm skeptical that Mahomes/Burrow/Jackson/Allen will win more than one or two SB's between them. None of them look as invisible as they did a few years ago and that's because their targets are much inferior and/or they are getting more roughed up behind a worse O-line.

[Seltzer]

2 hours ago, WUnderhill said:

There’s too many to reply to so I’ll just say a couple more things then I’m out:

1. It hasn’t been both ways and that’s the point. People saying stuff like “too bad Bryce Young didn’t make that tackle” is a direct result of the ridiculousness of blaming Bryce Young for literally everything. I remember one game day thread a poster unironically blamed Bryce Young for JT Sanders flipping onto his own neck and injuring himself. That post was pied. I literally just read a post blaming Bryce Young for XL dropping a ball on a would-be game winning drive last year. This past week, when Tmac bounced a ball off his hands for an interception, Bryce Young was immediately blamed in the game day thread. Alternatively, people who try to give credit to Bryce Young are immediately told that to credit Bryce Young is taking away credit from Rico Dowdle, OL, whoever, and that they shouldn’t be talking positively about Bryce Young because he doesn’t deserve any credit.

2. Yes, there have always been bad posters, the difference is that back then they were largely derided. Bryce Young’s rookie season, when many of us were simply pointing at the train wreck of the whole team and saying it was maybe a little tough to evaluate Bryce Young when he had no time to throw and slow receivers, and just saying basic stuff like “Bryce Young can physically throw the ball further than 20 yards.” There was an attempt made to limit all those opinions to a single thread, by a mod. This is like saying lunatics running the asylum is normal because there have always been lunatics in the asylum. The difference is before they were patients, now they’re in charge.

3. I know for a fact I am labeled as one of the “Bryce Stans” by many of the usual suspects, but the fact of the matter is they have no idea what my position is on Bryce Young because any attempts at nuanced discussion in the past have been so completely pointless due to never being able to get past the hyperbole. How can we have a serious conversation if you insist he is physically incapable of throwing a football 20 yards? Or if you insist that he somehow duped the Panthers into drafting him just by drinking water? Or if you insist that he should be able to succeed behind one of the worst offensive lines I’ve ever seen (rookie year, not now). And I’m not the only one, there are many who have left the huddle because of it and started a discord server, I’m just too lazy for another app.

100% why I stay away most of the time too.

Too many posters raised on the outrage culture of social media.

People who have played in the NFL constantly have said Bryce has what it takes with a legit team (which he is proving this year), but posters on here are insistent on telling you they know more than people who are on actual NFL payrolls.

Its not worth having a discussion with people that have lost the plot this bad

[SmokinwithWilly]

1 minute ago, Seltzer said:

100% why I stay away most of the time too.

Too many posters raised on the outrage culture of social media.

People who have played in the NFL constantly have said Bryce has what it takes with a legit team (which he is proving this year), but posters on here are insistent on telling you they know more than people who are on actual NFL payrolls.

Its not worth having a discussion with people that have lost the plot this bad

It probably wouldn't be so bad if people posting on this message board hadn't been right more often than the professionals on Tepper's payroll over the last 8 years. 

[mrcompletely11]

14 minutes ago, Seltzer said:

100% why I stay away most of the time too.

Too many posters raised on the outrage culture of social media.

People who have played in the NFL constantly have said Bryce has what it takes with a legit team (which he is proving this year), but posters on here are insistent on telling you they know more than people who are on actual NFL payrolls.

Its not worth having a discussion with people that have lost the plot this bad

you also know there are players that say the opposite right?  So who do we believe?  Me I am sticking to my eyes and 40+ years of watching football

[AggieLean]

I also find it funny how these posters have all stayed away due to the negativity, but now they’re showing back up lol. 
 

Yall left because the team was trash, and you could no longer spin that “be positive” stuff or whatever narrative you were trying to push. I hope the panthers keep winning, but if they go back to losing how they were losing, they’ll disappear again. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

3 minutes ago, AggieLean said:

I also find it funny how these posters have all stayed away due to the negativity, but now they’re showing back up lol. 
 

Yall left because the team was trash, and you could no longer spin that “be positive” stuff or whatever narrative you were trying to push. I hope the panthers keep winning, but if they go back to losing how they were losing, they’ll disappear again. 

Being a football wasteland of an organization affects everyone differently.

[Bear Hands]

2 minutes ago, AggieLean said:

I also find it funny how these posters have all stayed away due to the negativity, but now they’re showing back up lol. 
 

Yall left because the team was trash, and you could no longer spin that “be positive” stuff or whatever narrative you were trying to push. I hope the panthers keep winning, but if they go back to losing how they were losing, they’ll disappear again. 

I will say, regardless of the fan typologies, having all the fandom, swimming in the misery for this long will make the next SB level squad feel more special than any prior. 

The mud in the NFL dungeon has hardened like a shell on this franchise.  Maybe we'll see a break out and give everyone a different playing field to babble in.     

[Luciu5]

10 minutes ago, AggieLean said:

I also find it funny how these posters have all stayed away due to the negativity, but now they’re showing back up lol. 
 

Yall left because the team was trash, and you could no longer spin that “be positive” stuff or whatever narrative you were trying to push. I hope the panthers keep winning, but if they go back to losing how they were losing, they’ll disappear again. 

Eh maybe. I'm pretty positive just in general. I don't post a lot here because it's a hostile environment if you try to have any kind of measured take. So it's just not worth contributing here. When I do post, I usually never come back to check replies because I really don't want to hear some of the absolute braindead stuff people here say. Mostly hyperbole and exaggeration, but it doesn't add poo to say stuff like "Bryce can't throw more than 5 yards", which is a common statement made here. Why don't they be honest and say "Bryce can't throw 60 yards down the field." Anyway, it's pretty rare to get any kind of decent conversation here so I'll share my piece every once in a while and not come back to see the poo emojis.

I bet there's plenty of people here who read and keep up on things but don't post. Why post when the community is just going to run you off?

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, outlaw4 said:

First off, my memory is faulty and so I should remember you. Anyways, welcome back.

Having been around here since 2004/2005, I do have to say all these hot takes are not necessary new. I still very much remember all the constant complaints about Jake Delhomme. How he was too inaccurate, fumbled the ball too often, threw bad interceptions, and how Steve Smith deserved a better QB. How this franchise needed to replace Jake for someone better because he dragged everyone down. We even had names for Jake defenders; Blind Delhomme Jock Sniffers (BDJS). That one thread about Chris Weinke over Jake Delhomme because Weinke threw for 423 Yards but only scoring 13 points remains the worst hot takes I've ever seen around here.

So to me, it feels like history repeating itself again and I don't feel like getting that much involved in flame wars like I used to. I am more of a sit back and see what the players/team does type of person. And even then, yes, there are so many moving parts that it's not as easy to pinpoint the core issues, especially when you're not inside the building and know every single detail. 

And yes, I think even way back then, I hated how overvalued the QB position was and it hasn't gotten much better. It's to where my philosophy has shifted to where if you can't win a SB with a QB on their rookie contract, you might as well get another one. Otherwise, you have to give that QB so much money that the rest of the roster suffers and your window becomes quite narrow.  That's why I'm skeptical that Mahomes/Burrow/Jackson/Allen will win more than one or two SB's between them. None of them look as invisible as they did a few years ago and that's because their targets are much inferior and/or they are getting more roughed up behind a worse O-line.

Well, Mahomes has won 3 Super Bowls and only one of those was in his rookie contract. Plus he has been to two more outside of that contract. Possibly he is an outlier in the guys you mention.

 

[strato]

31 minutes ago, Luciu5 said:

Eh maybe. I'm pretty positive just in general. I don't post a lot here because it's a hostile environment if you try to have any kind of measured take. So it's just not worth contributing here. When I do post, I usually never come back to check replies because I really don't want to hear some of the absolute braindead stuff people here say. Mostly hyperbole and exaggeration, but it doesn't add poo to say stuff like "Bryce can't throw more than 5 yards", which is a common statement made here. Why don't they be honest and say "Bryce can't throw 60 yards down the field." Anyway, it's pretty rare to get any kind of decent conversation here so I'll share my piece every once in a while and not come back to see the poo emojis.

I bet there's plenty of people here who read and keep up on things but don't post. Why post when the community is just going to run you off?

Where does this completely new claim of people lying about his arm strength like this 5 yard claim, and another right now today that claims ‘people’ say he can’t throw 20 yards, where is this coming from? 

Edited 3 hours ago by strato

[TD alt]

2 hours ago, cranky said:

Point is the OP never said anything about Bryce being good if he had some talent around him. That was all you.

It's called reading between the lines...