clearing up this kyle allen vs cam newton battle

[trueblade]

35 minutes ago, hepcat said:

If Cam comes back healthy and the team wins, no one is going to care. Cam won't survive another 8 game losing streak.

There won't be another 8 game losing streak. After Cam's first loss, people will be calling for Allen. After two (possibly three) losses, Rivera will have no choice.

(Of course, after Allen's first loss -- and hey, he is going to lose a game eventually -- people will be calling for Cam or Grier - that's how these QB things go.)

[rico6]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Would they, though?

Not suggesting they don't but even if they didn't would you really expect them to talk about it?

Where are you trying to go with this, exactly? Nobody is saying that it’s ring around the rosie in the locker room and all the players, but implying that Cam is causing a rift between teammates because of his health and resulting play is disingenuous and stupid as fug.

I mean it’s not like this kind of poo is happening after losses: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001060585/article/earl-thomas-brandon-williams-have-heated-talk-after-loss

[bigdavis]

5 hours ago, Saca312 said:

since this board has collective amnesia and/or a vitriolic tendency to commit to one side of the "cam newton vs kyle allen" spectrum, let me clear a few things up.

-No. Kyle Allen is not better than a healthy Cam Newton. Stop kidding yourselves. Even with Kyle Allen reaching his best form he won't even touch Cam's peak. Let's just end that ridiculous notion there.

-No. Kyle Allen does not suck. He's a more than capable backup that has starting potential for plenty of other teams. He does a lot of things right that not many QBs can do, and he still is learning/growing as a player. As more experience comes, his ball handling will be better, he'll step up in the pocket more, and he'll go through his progressions more efficiently.

-No. Kyle Allen should not remain the starter when Cam Newton comes back 100% healthy. Cam is (gasps) actually a more accurate thrower in tight windows in more tense situations than Kyle Allen has shown. He handles pressure better. His "overthrows" are the most overblown narrative out there and completely ignorant in the eyes of anyone who's actually watched his film. He also has more experience.

-No. Cam Newton has not sucked ever since 2015. It's like some of you have collective amnesia from the latter 2017 and early 2018 run where Cam was on a hot streak and in the MVP conversation. I dare say his performance in the 2017 playoffs was the best I've ever seen from Cam, especially considering the context of his o-line and practice squad WRs and outplaying a solid Drew Brees' performance. In fact, a healthy Cam Newton is better than his 2015 form, as he's been more accurate than before.

-No. Just because Cam Newton is a better QB than Kyle Allen doesn't mean Allen sucks. 

-Yes, it is possible for both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton to be good QBs. That can be mutually true without the clash of "blah blah blah Kyle Allen suxs" and "blah blah blah Cam Newton suxs." Pretend we have two capable starters on the team, because that's our current situation. It's just the one with more experience, an MVP award, superbowl appearance, multiple playoff wins, multiple NFL records, ROTY award, etc. happens to be the better option. That's a fact. Kyle Allen is still good but to hold him to the standard of Cam is idiotic and to downplay his impact for us is also moronic.

-Yes, it's fair to question Cam's health going forward. nothing is proven until played on the field. 

-Yes, it's idiotic to assume he'll suck going forward still.

-Yes, it's still moronic to assume Cam has sucked after 2015 or never lived up to that form.

-Yes, it's possible to support the Panthers if you like both Kyle Allen and Cam Newton.

-Yes, it is possible to enjoy a win without turning it into a Kyle Allen vs Cam Newton warzone. I mean we're 2-2 trending up now that's all that matters.

Just my few cents on this matter.

That was about $1.98 worth, and I loved every penny of it!

[Jeremy Igo]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Would they, though?

Not suggesting they don't but even if they didn't would you really expect them to talk about it?

Yeah, speaking off the record just BSing they would have.

[grimesgoat]

18 minutes ago, micnificent28 said:

I think that part is the part that is societies problem and not cams. You see what you want in Cams actions. I see him being himself and playing with a swagger that we really haven't seen at the position since say Broadway Joe in NY. Nobody said he was a asshat for wearing those fur coats and such.. he is still thought of positively for it.

Because Cam is outwardly and unapologetically himself people say hes selfish only cares of himself and all that crap you say" oh he wearing those clothes because hes depressed and seeking attention". That's a double standard.

I played a lot of team sports growing up.

"Swagger" never helped us win a single game.

Players that drew attention to themselves were tolerated if we were winning (assuming they were an important reason for us winning).  But the act grew pretty tired if we were losing.

[Malt Liquor]

At the end of the day its about wins and loses. If Kyle Allen continues to help this team win he is my guy. Until Cam comes back and start winning again he is not my guy for the Panthers. And its 2019 not 2015.

[GoobyPls]

1 hour ago, mav1234 said:

You seem to think the play doesn't impact the evaluation of a 2nd year player's contribution to the game because we have a kicker that can potentially make 60 yard field goals... that is strange. He didn't play a great game but he had some nice throws, more than he had poor throws for sure.  He took what the defense gave him and we won because of it.  

Not all turnovers are equal.  Context matters in this game. Allens bears responsiblity for the fumbles. But so too does the o line.  This is clearly an area he must improve on.

Allen got the ball where it needed to go when the game was on the line. Saying we won in spite of him ignores that fact.  We certainly didnt win because of him... I think it was a defense-led team effort.  I do not think 90% of qbs in the league win that game, given one of the better ones on the opposing team couldn't. 

What nice throws? Show me them. He made one good escape and threw it to a wide open Wright then another throw Wright made a great catch outside of that it was all dink and dunk with little out put.

 

And yes 90% of QBs win that game, and are you comparing Watson who went up against a top 5 secondary to Allen who went up against a secondary that was giving up 280 yards per game with 100+ passer rating LOL

 

BTW the fumbles were his fault, Chris Simms broke this down last Friday why Allen has fumble problems. I can post the video

[Mr. Scot]

12 minutes ago, rico6 said:

Where are you trying to go with this, exactly? Nobody is saying that it’s ring around the rosie in the locker room and all the players, but implying that Cam is causing a rift between teammates because of his health and resulting play is disingenuous and stupid as fug.

I mean it’s not like this kind of poo is happening after losses: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001060585/article/earl-thomas-brandon-williams-have-heated-talk-after-loss

I'm asking a question of Igo, and it's a valid one. If you look above, you'll see he answered it.

Quit looking for agendas in every little thing. It's paranoid.

[micnificent28]

4 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

I played a lot of team sports growing up.

"" never helped us win a single game.

Players that drew attention to themselves were tolerated if we were winning (assuming they were an important reason for us winning).  But the act grew pretty tired if we were losing.

That's just it. That's the way YOU grew up. This isn't about if it helped you win games it's just how he is. It comes natural. Trying to place your values on the new generation becomes one of those lost in translation kind of vibes. But we have seen it all before and I believe it is the exact same thing. Your generation probably loved rock music and thought it was the coolest thing ever, but the generation before yours probably hated it and thought it was trash. Same with hip hop music and so on. 

Football is a young mans game. And the attitudes around it will always reflect that.

 

[Carolina Cajun]

24 minutes ago, Jeremy Igo said:

For the record I have heard players say Cam is a strange bird.

Also for the record I have never heard a player say they didn't like Cam.

Someone at work today said the reason we're winning is "because the team has a QB they respect now", and of course I was like no.  The players had Cams back and still have Cams back, they know he works his ass off.  He may be an oddball, but he's a hard worker and seems like mostly a good dude (but that's just speculation from watching him give back to the community).  The difference right now is Allen is healthy.  the offense is opening up because Allen has the ability to throw the ball past 15 yards, if Cam is healthy, he can open the offense up more with that same pass and his ability to run.

[rico6]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm asking a question of Igo, and it's a valid one. And if you look above, you'll see he answered.

Quit looking for agendas in every little thing.

Nah, you and this quasi contrarian shtick is very old. I’m legitimately wondering where you wanting to go with that question.

[MasterAwesome]

My take:

Cam’s overall game (even when healthy) has generally been pretty streaky...he’s a player of peaks and valleys. His peaks are almost limitless, but his valleys can be quite low. His 2015 MVP season was amazing and pretty darn consistent...but for the most part, he’ll have some amazing games and some duds. Nothing exemplifies that more than the last two games of the 2017 season. In the regular season finale, he went 14/34 for 180 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs against Atlanta...then had an amazing performance against the Saints the next week in the playoffs.

Considering the seemingly stacked team we have surrounding the QB position (outside of maybe the o-line)...do we really need a QB with a lower floor/higher ceiling who can put the entire offense on his back for some games but struggle considerably in others? Or will we achieve the most success with a QB with perhaps a higher floor and lower ceiling who will protect the football and consistently make accurate throws and reads? Yeah I know, all the lost fumbles suck and are hardly “protecting the football”...so this is assuming Allen can clean that up, which is definitely not a given. We need a bigger sample size to be having this discussion responsibly, but my bottom line is that our team seems more than good enough to thrive with more of a “game manager” type QB who will limit mistakes, rely on the ground game/defense, but is more than capable of making the throws he needs to. Allen seems to fit the latter description so far, but it’s still too early to tell.

[TheMaulClaw]

I don't know....but I think they should shelf Cam for the year, and let them compete next year for the job.

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, rico6 said:

Nah, you and this quasi contrarian shtick is very old. I’m legitimately wondering where you wanting to go with that question.

I wanted an answer.

Igo gave me one.

You're free to think it's part of an insidious conspiracy to take Cam Newton down using an internet message board that a few thousand people with no power to affect anything regarding the Panthers happen to read if you want to. It's stupid, but you have that right.