Verge's Draft General thread 2021

[Catsfan69]

14 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

Because I've watched the games?

You might want to go to lenscrafters.

[LinvilleGorge]

33 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

Because I've watched the games?

Then I'm even more baffled.

[MHS831]

Personally, I understand the concerns about Jones, but statistically, he has not disappointed and he is supposedly a fast processor and has a quick release.  His average per attempt is higher than some of the players you/we covet more.  She is not saying he sucks do not even think about it, she is saying (if I understand correctly) that she has concerns.  I am not as concerned, but I am not saying any QB is going to be trash and I am not crowning any player.  Did Jones miss open WRs?  Yes.  Does Fields have question marks?  Lance?  Heck, even Watson has had 2 ACL surgeries and could have another--TD did.  If so, and we have given up 3 firsts and 2 star players, where are we going to be?

I am saying that nobody knows how good these guys are going to be--the success rate in the NFL for first rounders is about 50%--a coin toss.  Yet we have huddlers who already know the answer and attack any and all who make a positive comment about a player they do not want.  How stupid.  The more informed Huddlers simply state why they like a player or that they do not like a player because...and they give concrete reasons. 

Again, I love the drama---I love discussing it and I actually ask for concrete reasons to oppose my opinions because I am not an expert.  I want to hear alternative points.  Verge has reasons, shared videos, etc.  I am still not sold, but at least someone provided concrete reasons.  Some points were good, and some lead me to more questions. 

And then we have people on here whose usernames are cleverly phrased sex positions and they just bash others without facts, using profanity and proclaiming to know it all.  Folks, a sign of maturity and intellect is to consider every issue from every perspective before making up your mind. Finger-pointing temper tantrums are for toddlers--I do not care about a toddler's position on the Panthers.

[Catsfan69]

43 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Personally, I understand the concerns about Jones, but statistically, he has not disappointed and he is supposedly a fast processor and has a quick release.  His average per attempt is higher than some of the players you/we covet more.  She is not saying he sucks do not even think about it, she is saying (if I understand correctly) that she has concerns.  I am not as concerned, but I am not saying any QB is going to be trash and I am not crowning any player.  Did Jones miss open WRs?  Yes.  Does Fields have question marks?  Lance?  Heck, even Watson has had 2 ACL surgeries and could have another--TD did.  If so, and we have given up 3 firsts and 2 star players, where are we going to be?

I am saying that nobody knows how good these guys are going to be--the success rate in the NFL for first rounders is about 50%--a coin toss.  Yet we have huddlers who already know the answer and attack any and all who make a positive comment about a player they do not want.  How stupid.  The more informed Huddlers simply state why they like a player or that they do not like a player because...and they give concrete reasons. 

Again, I love the drama---I love discussing it and I actually ask for concrete reasons to oppose my opinions because I am not an expert.  I want to hear alternative points.  Verge has reasons, shared videos, etc.  I am still not sold, but at least someone provided concrete reasons.  Some points were good, and some lead me to more questions. 

And then we have people on here whose usernames are cleverly phrased sex positions and they just bash others without facts, using profanity and proclaiming to know it all.  Folks, a sign of maturity and intellect is to consider every issue from every perspective before making up your mind. Finger-pointing temper tantrums are for toddlers--I do not care about a toddler's position on the Panthers.

This is a forum for football. 

I was born in 1969.

Understand a little hyperbole and good ol fashioned locker room schit talking is pretty common amongst guys talking football. 

Don't be so serious. 

And she said that most of his throws are drinks and dunks.

His yards per attempt are inflated due to incredible athletes making plays after the catch.

There is literally nothing I've said that she hasn't confirmed. 

If you've ever been in a meeting room and watched film as you seem to have based on what I know about you so far then I don't know how you can't come up with the same conclusions that OP and I have?

I have provided tape. When I get to Atlanta tomorrow night I will post some deep ball plays similar to Teddy's. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Catsfan69

[Aussie Tank]

Don’t know about the other QBs in this class but I feel Mac Jones will be more successful than Tua 

[mickeye76]

You know who Mac Jones reminds me of?  Gardner Minshew.  The first read is usually his best. Give Minshew Bamas playmakers and oline and I bet ya he would have killed. That said much like Mac his lack of arm strength limits him.  Minshew and Mac both have surprising scramble ability.  Surprise is the asset because neither have elite athleticism.  Mac is a little taller 6' 3" instead of 6' 1" and Gardner actually is a bit better built.  Mac's 216 odd pounds with the infamous dad bod selfies compared to Minshew having a fairly solid stocky 225.  Just saying Mac for all his hype could end up parlaying his business degree and Bama glory days into a better career than his NFL one.  

[TrevorLaurenceTime22]

10 hours ago, Verge said:

Hi there! This will be my updated draft thread, where I will keep my position rankings, top 50-100 players, rumors, etc etc I will update this constantly as we get closer to the draft and will post all rumors I hear within this thread to make it easier for you.


With that being said I will start this thread with my updated top 50 separated by tiers and asterisks next to players the Panthers should/might target. 

Top 50 players: 
1. Trevor Lawrence, QB, CLE
(Tier seperation)
2. Zach Wilson, QB,  BYU*
3. Kyle Pitts, TE, FLO*
4. Penei Sewell, T, ORE*
5. Ja'Marr Chase, WR, LSU
6. Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah, OLB/ILB, ND*
7. Jaylen Waddle, WR, ALA 
8. Rashawn Slater, T/G, NW *
9. Caleb Farley, CB, VT*
10. Micah Parsons, OLB/ILB, PST*
(Tier separation)
11. Alijah Vera-Tucker, T/G, USC *
12. Kwity Paye, DE/DT, MICH
13. Jaycee Horn, CB, SC*
14. Trey Lance, QB, NDSU *
15. Justin Fields, QB, OHST*
16. Devonta Smith, WR, ALA
(Tier separation)
17. Jaelan Phillips, DE, Miami
18. Patrick Surtain, CB, ALA*
19. Christian Darrisaw, T, VT *
20. Carlos Basham, EDGE, WF
21. Travis Etienne, RB, CLE
22. Zaven Collins, EDGE, TUL
23. Christian Barmore, DT, ALA
24. Azeez Ojulari, EDGE, GEO 
25. Najee Harris, RB, ALA 
26. Alex Leatherwood, T, ALA*
27. Tyson Campbell, CB, GEO*
28. Javonte Williams, RB, UNC
29. Jamin Davis, LB, KEN*
(Tier seperation)
30. Kadarious Toney, WR/RB, FLO
31. Gregory Rousseau, EDGE, MIA 
32. Kenny Gainwell, RB, MEM
33. Jalen Mayfield, OT, MIC*
34. Greg Newsome, CB, NW*
35. Jevon Holland, S, ORE*
36. Brevin Jordan, TE, MIA *
37. Trevon Moehrig, S, TCU*
38. Nick Bolton, LB, MIZZ*
39. Jackson Carman, OT/G, CLE*
40. Rondale Moore, WR, PUR
41. Trey Hill, C, GEO*
42. Jay Tufele, DT, USC
(Tier seperation)
43. Marvin Wilson, DT, FST
44. Samuel Cosmi, OT, TEX *
45. Wyatt Davis, G, OHST*
46. Teven Jenkins, OT, OKST*
47. Trey Smith, G, TEN *
48. Tyree Gillespie, S, MIZZ*
49. Marquez Stevenson, WR, HOU
50. Michael Carter, RB, UNC


Also, since I was asked how I would rank this QB class compared to the last: 
1. Trevor Lawrence 
2. Joe Burrow 
3. Zach Wilson 
4. Tua Tagovailoa
5. Justin Herbert 
6. Trey Lance 
7. Justin Fields 
8. Mac Jones 
9. Kellen Mond 
10. Jordan Love 

Great work as always @Verge !!!!

May I ask why Tua is above Herbert?

[SCPantherFan90]

4 hours ago, Verge said:

 

 

First off, I really appreciate the thread. Always look forward to you keeping the draft season fresh. 

That being said, what specifically do you think makes him look "not good" in that ND game. I see a player who nailed almost every throw (yes, a lot of short passes), quickly went through his reads when necessary, displayed great pocket awareness/movement, and (despite constantly being criticized for his time in the pocket) executed well when he was under pressure. 

I'm not saying he's the next Tom Brady, but I think he still looks like a great prospect (definitely better than top 50). I think what scares people is that Alabama players can be tougher to evaluate because of the overall talent level on the team and the fact the he's more of a traditional QB prospect. Should that scare teams off from picking him in the first round? Maybe, but Trey Lance (who I like) was a one year wonder, playing against far lesser competition, on a roster said to be much more talented than other teams at that level, and he hasn't really played in over a year. Are physical tools really held that high, that one can overlook all of those other problems, but not for Mac? 

IMO Mac does indeed have the physical tools to succeed in the NFL, despite being less athletic than his peers.

I'd probably still take Lance over Jones, because I'm a swing-for-the-fence guy, but I wouldn't be upset if we took Jones. This definitely isn't my day job though. Just wanted to try and see what you're seeing. 

[NJPanthers89]

This notion that Mac Jones can’t throw the deep ball reminds me of the Watson criticism when he was coming out.  Everyone was saying how he seemed to lack arm strength and ball velocity.  How did that work out?  Macs uncorked some beautiful deep balls, and with some tremendous accuracy.  He has his warts, but I don’t believe his deep ball is one of them.

[stirs]

https://gbnreport.com/2021-gbn-big-board/

Slater is pretty quick guy

[davos]

9 hours ago, stbugs said:

McCarron never played with Julio. He had Amari Cooper, 2 of his 3 starting years and nothing else. Jones had 3 1st round WRs (assuming Metchie goes 1st where he's projected). Cooper was good, but his "great" year came the year after McCarron was done. The OL was also nowhere near as good for McCarron. Cam Robinson didn't play with McCarron and I remember Robinson was discussed in here about being someone we might want and a lot of the talk was that Alabama OL had not produced good NFL OL. That changed after him and Jones' OL could end up with 4 day 1/day 2 picks.

McCarron wasn't close to an NFL starter, but his stats aren't that far behind Jones. He just had 25% less attempts so lower yardage and TDs. Again, not saying McCarron was as good, but with less WR studs and a worst OL, McCarron wasn't so far behind Jones that I'd think that Jones is a stud considering how not well McCarron did in the NFL.

I never felt super impressed by Jones versus in awe of some of his weapons.

I stand corrected, mixed up my Falcons receivers ha.  I'm just saying they both present the same amount of bland and come from the same program.  I don't take it as a notch against Jones, but it hides what he does/doesn't have. 

[Verge]

7 hours ago, SCPantherFan90 said:

First off, I really appreciate the thread. Always look forward to you keeping the draft season fresh. 

That being said, what specifically do you think makes him look "not good" in that ND game. I see a player who nailed almost every throw (yes, a lot of short passes), quickly went through his reads when necessary, displayed great pocket awareness/movement, and (despite constantly being criticized for his time in the pocket) executed well when he was under pressure. 

I'm not saying he's the next Tom Brady, but I think he still looks like a great prospect (definitely better than top 50). I think what scares people is that Alabama players can be tougher to evaluate because of the overall talent level on the team and the fact the he's more of a traditional QB prospect. Should that scare teams off from picking him in the first round? Maybe, but Trey Lance (who I like) was a one year wonder, playing against far lesser competition, on a roster said to be much more talented than other teams at that level, and he hasn't really played in over a year. Are physical tools really held that high, that one can overlook all of those other problems, but not for Mac? 

IMO Mac does indeed have the physical tools to succeed in the NFL, despite being less athletic than his peers.

I'd probably still take Lance over Jones, because I'm a swing-for-the-fence guy, but I wouldn't be upset if we took Jones. This definitely isn't my day job though. Just wanted to try and see what you're seeing. 

You are making me rewatch tape so I am mad at you but here we go lol I will evaluate every throw that goes past 3 yards initially. 

At 1:30 is a genuinely impressive play, he recognizes pressure, escapes, and understands where his outside receiver is and nails him. 

At 1:45 he hesitates his read and hangs it up for what would absolutely be a pick in the NFL and get his receiver killed, the velocity just was not there. 

At 2:45 he hits a comeback on a receiver sprinting back towards the ball, it's fine nothing to really take away, could have left the receiver with more momentum I guess.

At 3:00 he throws it up in the general direction of the endzone and there is no one within 10 yards of his receiver. Good placement for what it is, you just can't really take anything from it. 

At 4:30 throws it low and outside his receivers route, receiver has to break and make a play by diving to save an interception, would be a pick at the NFL level as the DB should have broke on the ball.

At 4:40 nice RPO where LBs bite leaving his receiver in man on a quick slant, receiver breaks it to the house. 

At 6:00 he hits his receiver on a 10 yard come back, good play design that leads his receiver in man and Mac Jones puts it where it needs to be. 

At 6:20 hard to say if it was a miscommunication or what, but ultimately inaccurate pass on 3rd down, not sure his receiver ever had a chance at it.

At 6:40 gets pressure in his face and lobs it up for his receiver in traffic, great play by his receiver who was open, but that stuff would get his receiver killed in the NFL, or it is a pick. Should have been more of a line drive throw, but he could not get the pass out cleanly hard to tell if hit directly effected throw or the pressure itself but I believe it was just the pressure. At the end of the day the play gets made so whatever.

At 7:50 ball is batted down at the LOS

At 8:10 nice RPO, all the LBs bite, he hits his wide open receiver, receiver takes it 50 yards. (you might notice a pattern)

At 9:45 he has a really nice ball outside on a rollout, nails his receiver with good timing. Excellent throw. 

At 10:15 he hits a wide open receiver, nice soft pass. 

At 10:40 ball is batted at the LOS

At 10:50 he hits an underneath pass to his wide open receiver. Good quick recognition.

At 11:20 he nails a soft pass to the outside on a comeback, his receiver drops it. 


So out of that entire game what are you as a scout supposed to come away with exactly? Yeah he had what? Two passes where you are saying "Yeah that was pretty good" but you also have two passes where you go "Oh you can't throw that ball". Mac Jones is as hard to evaluate as anyone, especially considering where he gets chunks plays from. Maybe bad game wasn't the way to put it, but it's a bad game to try and evaluate, and that is against of of the nations best teams. 






 

[shaqattaq]

14 hours ago, Catsfan69 said:

What happened to the edit function?

Stupid autocorrect has me saying a girl I doubt instead of a girl I date.

I always doubted the girls I dated too. Edit moved to the 3 dots in the upper-right corner.

[Bama Panther]

1 hour ago, Verge said:

You are making me rewatch tape so I am mad at you but here we go lol I will evaluate every throw that goes past 3 yards initially. 

At 1:30 is a genuinely impressive play, he recognizes pressure, escapes, and understands where his outside receiver is and nails him. 

At 1:45 he hesitates his read and hangs it up for what would absolutely be a pick in the NFL and get his receiver killed, the velocity just was not there. 

At 2:45 he hits a comeback on a receiver sprinting back towards the ball, it's fine nothing to really take away, could have left the receiver with more momentum I guess.

At 3:00 he throws it up in the general direction of the endzone and there is no one within 10 yards of his receiver. Good placement for what it is, you just can't really take anything from it. 

At 4:30 throws it low and outside his receivers route, receiver has to break and make a play by diving to save an interception, would be a pick at the NFL level as the DB should have broke on the ball.

At 4:40 nice RPO where LBs bite leaving his receiver in man on a quick slant, receiver breaks it to the house. 

At 6:00 he hits his receiver on a 10 yard come back, good play design that leads his receiver in man and Mac Jones puts it where it needs to be. 

At 6:20 hard to say if it was a miscommunication or what, but ultimately inaccurate pass on 3rd down, not sure his receiver ever had a chance at it.

At 6:40 gets pressure in his face and lobs it up for his receiver in traffic, great play by his receiver who was open, but that stuff would get his receiver killed in the NFL, or it is a pick. Should have been more of a line drive throw, but he could not get the pass out cleanly hard to tell if hit directly effected throw or the pressure itself but I believe it was just the pressure. At the end of the day the play gets made so whatever.

At 7:50 ball is batted down at the LOS

At 8:10 nice RPO, all the LBs bite, he hits his wide open receiver, receiver takes it 50 yards. (you might notice a pattern)

At 9:45 he has a really nice ball outside on a rollout, nails his receiver with good timing. Excellent throw. 

At 10:15 he hits a wide open receiver, nice soft pass. 

At 10:40 ball is batted at the LOS

At 10:50 he hits an underneath pass to his wide open receiver. Good quick recognition.

At 11:20 he nails a soft pass to the outside on a comeback, his receiver drops it. 


So out of that entire game what are you as a scout supposed to come away with exactly? Yeah he had what? Two passes where you are saying "Yeah that was pretty good" but you also have two passes where you go "Oh you can't throw that ball". Mac Jones is as hard to evaluate as anyone, especially considering where he gets chunks plays from. Maybe bad game wasn't the way to put it, but it's a bad game to try and evaluate, and that is against of of the nations best teams. 






 

I’m not a scout and don’t profess to be. However, two of the three negative plays you cite do not seem to be as big of concerns as you make them out to be. The play at 06:20 does seem to be a miscommunication in which Jones threw an out-breaking route where the receiver broke in and/or was held from breaking out. At 06:40, Jones’ arm was very clearly hit, negating the ability to follow through and likely leading to the floater. There are also several plays which he keeps alive with his feet or scrambles for a few yard pick-up. Maybe a tough game to scout, but how does doing pretty much everything he is asked to do well negative for him?