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Mr. Scot

By Mr. Scot,
in Carolina Panthers

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X-Clown Mentor

X-Clown

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, frankw said:

We can squabble over Kirk's numbers but can we agree linking him with Burrow to soften his playoff record is a stretch? Burrow has already led his franchise to a Super Bowl by age 25 and the Bengals have been one of the worst teams in the league for years.

Not only that, but Cousins has been in the league for over a decade and only has made the playoffs 3 times as a starter, despite being one of the more highly paid starters for several years over that stretch. He's had other meaningful regular season games where he's underperformed too (i.e. primetime games, games with playoff implications, etc). 

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Icege Grand Master

Icege

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18 minutes ago, X-Clown said:

Not only that, but Cousins has been in the league for over a decade and only has made the playoffs 3 times as a starter, despite being one of the more highly paid starters for several years over that stretch. He's had other meaningful regular season games where he's underperformed too (i.e. primetime games, games with playoff implications, etc). 

None of that has anything to do with the point presented in the video though. The point is that Cousins is labeled as somebody that chokes in the playoffs but when lining his stats up alongside Joe Burrow (who is seen in the opposite light) they look incredibly similar with the biggest takeaway being how much better the Bengals defense has performed than the Vikings. Nobody is debating his pay. 

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Pup McBarky Proficient

Pup McBarky

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Posted

I don't think anyone is claiming Cousins is as good as Burrow. Or maybe they are. I dunno. I don't think he is. But I wonder what the narrative would be if Cousins' defense had been as effective as Burrow's in the playoffs. Maybe Cousins still finds ways to lose, I dunno, but the video is certainly interesting.

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frankw Grand Master

frankw

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1 hour ago, TheCasillas said:

That isnt the topic of the video. I know you just commented on it and did not watch it, so I will provide a summary for you.

The topic is around how these two guys get completely rated on the opposite sides of the spectrum yet have very similiar stats in playoffs, but their defenses are completely oppopsite of each other. They spoke to examples of which the defense bailed Joe Burrow out and he could easily be 1-5 as well with his playoff record. Example provided:


They said it's their fault that these two guys are graded the way they are because it's the media job to create contrast and conflict. They also did say that they both deserve scrutiiny because they are in the most scrutinized position on a football team and are paid handsomely.  However, they went on the defense of Cousins and said that he does get it more than other QBs and people to blindly look away from the Vikings defense. 

All this to say.... the perspective of Cousins is skewed and if you compared him statistically he is up there near QBs like Burrow for elite play. 

So the topic isnt Cousins being better or as good as Burrow, but rather he isn't the choke artist of the Vikings, the Vikings are the choke artists as whole. 

I'm not pro Cousins at all but even I wouldn't label him a choke artist. That's a strong term reserved for some true turds. He's been pretty productive in the regular season. I don't see the point in engaging in what if this happened or that happened scenarios. You can find games where his defense might not have had a good performance and you can find some where they made plays to help the team win but Kirk got the credit since he's the defacto leader. Even QB's who were great and changed the game can't run away from their losses. See our only MVP in franchise history and losing Super Bowl 50. From my POV it looks like some folks are just trying to stick up for Cousins bc they feel he is being unfairly slighted. But really he isn't and the criticism he has faced for his playoff record is no different than any other QB 🤷‍♂️

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X-Clown Mentor

X-Clown

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45 minutes ago, Icege said:

None of that has anything to do with the point presented in the video though. The point is that Cousins is labeled as somebody that chokes in the playoffs but when lining his stats up alongside Joe Burrow (who is seen in the opposite light) they look incredibly similar with the biggest takeaway being how much better the Bengals defense has performed than the Vikings. Nobody is debating his pay. 

And my point is that it’s not just playoff record that gives Cousins the choker label, it’s body of work. He came to a team that was in the NFC championship the previous year, whereas Joe Burrow came to a team with the worst record in the league that had not won a playoff game in 30 years. 
 

I would get the argument if you were comparing Cousins to Jimmy “just wins playoff games by handing off and not screwing things up” Garoppolo. 

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Icege Grand Master

Icege

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5 minutes ago, X-Clown said:

And my point is that it’s not just playoff record that gives Cousins the choker label, it’s body of work. He came to a team that was in the NFC championship the previous year, whereas Joe Burrow came to a team with the worst record in the league that had not won a playoff game in 30 years. 
 

I would get the argument if you were comparing Cousins to Jimmy “just wins playoff games by handing off and not screwing things up” Garoppolo. 

I'm not aware of Cousins entire body of work (though I imagine I'm about to become more familiar with the research I'm about to do :P), but in regards to what you pointed out with the 2017 vs. 2018 Vikings there is a lot of context missing there. Such as:

  • Minnesota's OL in 2017 ranked #6. In 2018 they plummeted to #29 after losing guards Joe Berger (retirement) and Nick Easton (training camp neck injury).
  • The interior offensive line for Cousins' 2018 Vikings: Tom Compton, Pat Elflein, and Mike Remmers 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
  • The three aforementioned interior offensive linemen gave up a combined 18 sacks.
  • Compton (47th among guards) and Remmers (50th) together allowed 77 total pressures.
  • Rookie 2nd round selection Brian O'Neill started at RT and allowed 31 pressures (but did not allow a sack in 531 pass-pro situations).
  • The team's pass defense suffered greatly with the loss of 1st round selection Mike Hughes to a torn ACL in October which left an undrafted rookie Holton Hill to step up. Xavier Rhodes also happened to have the worst year of his career that same season allowing a catch rate of 65.2%.
  • Cousins worst stretch that season came after the Bye week where the Vikings would eventually go 3-4 over that period with losses to the Bears (twice), Seahawks, and Patriots.  The Pats were 8-3 at the time and would finish the season 11-5. The Bears went 12-4 and were only behind the Saints & Rams who had both gone 13-3. The Seahawks finished 10-6.  None of these were bad teams with bad defenses.

We all saw what a bad offensive line does to a QB just two seasons ago. Putting the 2018 Vikings record on Cousins simply does not match up with what actually happened.

Joe Burrow was also 2-6-1 with the Bengals before he broke his leg in week 11 of his rookie season. He did not take them to the playoffs. That was his sophomore season when the team went 10-7 after signing Riley Reiff (Cousins' one solid offensive lineman in Minnesota) and drafting Ja'Marr Chase.

Jimmy G could be funny to add to the mix now that you mention it... I wonder what the graphic would look like with him on there.

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Icege Grand Master

Icege

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Unrelated to the Cousins/Burrow debate...

Consolidated list below:

$152M - CLE
$138M - KC
$136M - DET
$133M - LV
$131M - DEN
$129M - BAL
$122M - BUF, CIN, JAX
$121M - NYJ
$119M - ATL, NO
$117M - ARI
$116M - DAL
$115M - SF
$111M - NYG
$110M - MIA
$108M - LAC, HOU
$107M - TEN, CHI
$105M - PIT, WAS
$104M - MIN, IND
$101M - PHI, SEA
$100M - NE, LAR
$84M - TB, CAR
$83M - GB

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X-Clown Mentor

X-Clown

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1 hour ago, Icege said:

I'm not aware of Cousins entire body of work (though I imagine I'm about to become more familiar with the research I'm about to do :P), but in regards to what you pointed out with the 2017 vs. 2018 Vikings there is a lot of context missing there. Such as:

  • Minnesota's OL in 2017 ranked #6. In 2018 they plummeted to #29 after losing guards Joe Berger (retirement) and Nick Easton (training camp neck injury).
  • The interior offensive line for Cousins' 2018 Vikings: Tom Compton, Pat Elflein, and Mike Remmers 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
  • The three aforementioned interior offensive linemen gave up a combined 18 sacks.
  • Compton (47th among guards) and Remmers (50th) together allowed 77 total pressures.
  • Rookie 2nd round selection Brian O'Neill started at RT and allowed 31 pressures (but did not allow a sack in 531 pass-pro situations).
  • The team's pass defense suffered greatly with the loss of 1st round selection Mike Hughes to a torn ACL in October which left an undrafted rookie Holton Hill to step up. Xavier Rhodes also happened to have the worst year of his career that same season allowing a catch rate of 65.2%.
  • Cousins worst stretch that season came after the Bye week where the Vikings would eventually go 3-4 over that period with losses to the Bears (twice), Seahawks, and Patriots.  The Pats were 8-3 at the time and would finish the season 11-5. The Bears went 12-4 and were only behind the Saints & Rams who had both gone 13-3. The Seahawks finished 10-6.  None of these were bad teams with bad defenses.

We all saw what a bad offensive line does to a QB just two seasons ago. Putting the 2018 Vikings record on Cousins simply does not match up with what actually happened.

Joe Burrow was also 2-6-1 with the Bengals before he broke his leg in week 11 of his rookie season. He did not take them to the playoffs. That was his sophomore season when the team went 10-7 after signing Riley Reiff (Cousins' one solid offensive lineman in Minnesota) and drafting Ja'Marr Chase.

Jimmy G could be funny to add to the mix now that you mention it... I wonder what the graphic would look like with him on there.

I didn’t claim Burrow took his team to the playoffs his first year, I just said that he went to a team that was in far worse shape than Kirk’s was when he joined Minnesotas, as evidenced by them having the number one overall pick that year. Not sure how that’s debatable.

  The Vikings o line in 2017 was ranked 22nd in the league vs 27th in 2018, so it’s not like they were stellar for Keenum either. Burrows o line his rookie year was 30th and improved to 20th the year they went to the Super Bowl. 

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