Post your overreaction here?

[kungfoodude]

13 minutes ago, Move the Panthers to Raleigh said:

If we had just kept Baker, we would be coming off back-to-back playoff runs 

Probably not. If you plop Baker on this time right now, it's not exactly a sure thing we would be a playoff team.

[Move the Panthers to Raleigh]

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Probably not. If you plop Baker on this time right now, it's not exactly a sure thing we would be a playoff team.

No, but if we have Baker, that means we don’t make the Bryce trade, still have DJ, and used high picks on D. And that’s hypothetically that we don’t draft busts

[kungfoodude]

6 minutes ago, Move the Panthers to Raleigh said:

No, but if we have Baker, that means we don’t make the Bryce trade, still have DJ, and used high picks on D. And that’s hypothetically that we don’t draft busts

Yeah, given the track record we would have fuged up the draft anyway.

It would have robbed Baker from Tampa which WOULD have aided us in that effort to be #1 in the division.

Lots of factors would be different. Lots od dominoes that would have changed.

It is what it is now. I don't think plopping down even a Josh Allen is going to make this team an immediate world beater. Probably more like an 8-9 win team.

 

[45catfan]

The overreaction was from anyone thinking this year's Panthers were gong to be anything marked better than previous squads under Tepper.

[Hoenheim]

At the very least, it means we have really bad depth on this team if we get beat so bad in every pre season game. That means your 2nd and 3rd stringers are consistently getting beat in their matchups..

Our offensive starters looked good for 1 drive in the first game, that's about it.

Still worried about the defense, especially the run D. I know Horn didn't play and D.Brown didn't play most of the snaps. Any time the starters got taken out the run defense went to poo very quickly, which is a bad sign that they could be very bad again

Legette got tossed out of the first game for fighting and was a ghost in the 2nd game, I'm not sure if he was even targeted this game.

[mrcompletely11]

Just now, Hoenheim said:

At the very least, it means we have really bad depth on this team if we get beat so bad in every pre season game. That means your 2nd and 3rd stringers are consistently getting beat in their matchups..

Our offensive starters looked good for 1 drive in the first game, that's about it.

Still worried about the defense, especially the run D. I know Horn didn't play and D.Brown didn't play most of the snaps. Any time the starters got taken out the run defense went to poo very quickly, which is a bad sign that they could be very bad again

Legette got tossed out of the first game for fighting and was a ghost in the 2nd game, I'm not sure if he was even targeted this game.

For me its not just about getting beat bad, its about coming out completely flat  Both sides of the ball and its been a thing for years now.

[The Lobo]

4 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

The two 0-16 teams in NFL history both went 4-0 in the preseason in the year they didn't win a game.

Preseason really means nothing

Let’s hope you’re right 

[jb2288]

13 hours ago, Manna said:

So they do good in practice but poorly in game? Theres a huge disconnect somewhere then. 

Bryce’s biggest issue imo is it takes him way too long to relax. I’m not talking drives, I’m talking games. After his rookie season almost can’t blame him, then the benching seemed to help. I didn’t want the game yesterday but people said he was looking skittish and lost (I know take with a grain of salt) but wouldn’t be surprised if he balls out this entire week again then struggles game 1. He has to find a way to wash away everything about his rookie season and first half of last year and trust himself and coaches. It’s Y3 I think we get a much faster start this year if the OL and WR live up to their potential. 

[Gapanthersfan]

I think this team does in fact obtain talented players but coaching and conditioning are abysmal. Closed training camp with VERY few, organization approved, messages… and then we get this? Kind of makes you question things. The team looks lost, soft and unfocused. More of the same except…

Wilks short tenure. How the team looked completely changed overnight. Steve saved Darnold’s career for God’s sake. I’m not saying Wilks was the answer long term as that has already been argued 100 times… but it’s hard to not put the ‘if onlys’ together. 

Im saying coaching matters. Attitude matters. Evero 1000% is not it. Offense will right the ship fairly quickly in to the season, but the defense will severely underperform. Defensive depth is a really big problem. 
 

Edited Sunday at 06:13 PM by Gapanthersfan

[Proudiddy]

11 hours ago, Icege said:

My current overreactions (and copium) before reviewing the All-22:

• LB is a huge problem. Not only is depth incredibly weak, we're depending on a second year Trevin Wallace. While having solid athletic traits, Trevin seems to be out of position more often than we'd want our starting ILB. There's also been errors in coverage as well, which was one of his strong points due to said athleticism.
  • Rams LB situation was to basically walk out ST LBs (ie: Rozeboom) and let them do what they can while the DL takes care of the run and the DBs handle coverage. LBs job might be asked to lurk and clean up this season. I'm going to have to go look at the 2023 season as well as Evero's 2022 season with Denver. Wallace does have the skillset though to be a solid blitzer if schemed up. Evero likes to use ILBs to supplement the pass rush sometimes, so having Moehrig/Wallace/Jaycee all able to blitz at any given moment will allow for more options to pressure with.
• Young weapons need to start stepping up. Having to depend on a rookie WR1, second year WR2 that was known to be a project, and a soon-to-be 35yr old WR3, Tremble coming back from back surgery, and an inconsistent Ja'Tavion Sanders isn't going to allow the offense to truly threaten through the air.
  • The WR room is deep with veteran slot guys, an exciting top-10 pick, a late first rounder, an exciting UDFA that is challenging for WR2, and the explosiveness of Jimmy Horn Jr gives a lot to be excited for. There's going to be some growing pains, but what's most important this season is TMac + XL's development + chemistry with Bryce. The real test is 2026 when it's time for Bryce to play for a second contract and Tillis has the roster set to be able to be reset should things not be going where they need to under Canales.
• While more comfortable looking, the team can't afford a slow start by Bryce. Going three-and-out on back-to-back opening drives (without all of the opponents' starters) is not giving guns blazing out the gate... and wtf was that atrocious throw today on the free play? Even if you know you've got a free shot that was bad. Also looked like he was already pressing early by not taking the open check down.
  • Can't catch it for em. That JT Sanders drop looked egregious, but I'll get a better idea of what happened when the All-22 comes out (as well as what the hell Bryce saw on the free play). TMac has also made more difficult catches than the one that came his way look simple, but he's clearly still catching up as a rookie. As the season is underway and more targets come his way we'll probably forget plays like that one. Bryce just has to keep trending up and helping his young weapons develop with him.
• The OL and the run game, the supposed strengths of the offense, have not looked strong. The OL has given up pressures, penalties, and hasn't been getting the push in the run game. As announcers and analysts have also pointed out, the team doesn't look like it's due to break off a big run any time soon.
  • That RB room is deep with Chuba, Dowdle, and Etienne. Etienne especially has looked like he's taken Blackshear's job on ST and the offense. The OL has also been somewhat protected this season, being pulled after just a series or two (and not playing against Pittsburgh on Thursday). DLew being out has also allowed for better evaluation of the OL to see if there's anybody that can make a case to carry 10 OL into the season
• The pass rush is still non-existent and relying on the duo of Wonnum/Jones II made sense in Minnesota when they were rotating for each other but not both starting. Derrick Brown is a presence, but he doesn't exactly rack up sacks. The team looks destined to be bottom-10 in pressure again.
  • It's a tough pill to swallow, but this season (pass rush-wise) is all about Scourton and Umanmielen's development. The sooner they threaten starting time, the better (see: Ransom/Richardson vs. Scott in the safety room, though Wonnum/Jones II are better starters than Nick). With Moehrig, Ransom, Horn, Jackson, and Wallace available to be sent on blitzes, Evero will be able to scheme up 1v1s and maybe even some open rushers. He's got the personnel where we don't have to worry about asking "is it cover-3 or is it fire zone?" Also, Evero's shown that he can scheme to buy time for the pass rush through confusing QBs with post-snap shifts. Combine that with confusing the OL with where they have to shift to deal with additional pressure, we'll hopefully see more sacks this season than we have the last two. Finally, DB played a single series. BB3 has already shown that he can make an impact as well. 

Really love and appreciate all you do for the board, Icege.

 

just wanted to piggyback off a few things you said here.  I trust your judgment of what you see, especially with your access to the all-22, whereas I just have the love looks to rely on.  
 

as far as Wallace, I said it yesterday in the game thread - that was not an encouraging showing.  Yes, he is around the ball/play quite often, but at least twice yesterday, he was in the correct spot but got bulldozed at the point of contact for additional yardage, and I mean like 2 to 3 yards or more each.  Ever since Tepper has taken over, there seems to be much more of a concerted effort by the organization to hype up certain guys, which is why I think people got fed up with the panthers bot.  It doesn’t feel genuine.  Sometimes it feels like a cover-up for mistakes and then as fans, we feel insulted.  Like why not just give it to us straight?  So, I say all of that to say, he has received a lot of hype from the organization, and yes, he does some things well, but it also feels like he has some glaring weaknesses and stuff like that point of contact thing I noticed yesterday - it feels like he’s being thrust into a position he might not be ready for.  And in a lot of instances with this Tepper regime, I fear that’s often the case, but the organization tries to gloss over it with fluff instead of just making sound football decisions and adjustments.  I think the fluff pisses people, me included, off.  I also think it has that affect because when what we see is different from what they’re telling us to see, how can we ever trust that you’ll make sound decisions and get the ship righted?  Idk, I’m rambling a little, but just something I noticed.  Again, Wallace has some great attributes, but he also is struggling in some obvious places and I am not sure he is ready for the role he is being placed in.

I feel like with this offensive lineup, any competent QB would easily be moving the ball down the field.  That’s why yesterday was so disappointing and I don’t think you can call any reaction to it an “over” reaction.  What Bryce did yesterday looked like that first year and a half all over again.  The entirety of those two series looked so dysfunctional and discouraging that I honestly had forgot about the “free play” throw.  That free play might have been the most damning thing of all and it didn’t even count.  Bryce could’ve chucked it as far downfield as he wanted.  The fact the receiver slowed down (from what I remember) and Bryce still underthrew it straight to a defender, instead of them both recognizing, “hey let’s go for the gusto!” All while Bryce got little boy’d upon throwing it.  It was just a shaking-my-head moment.  And again, the miscommunications, the running around with no real objective, the poor ball placement combined with the drops…  it was all bad.  And as I’ve stated before, my fear has been that Bryce would regress back to the mean.  As bad as his first year and a half was, that isn’t just some unfortunate coincidence.  That’s the baseline.  His end of season stretch last year was the exception, and my fear has been that he would be unable to maintain that.  Yesterday looked like he isn’t.  And honestly, yesterday also again reminded me of why I never wanted us to draft him in the worst ways because we are dissecting whether certain balls should be caught depending on where they were placed in relation to direction and position of defenders, and we are doing that because Bryce is so lacking in physical ability at the most important position in the game that it requires an almost razor thin margin of error for everyone around him.  It’s unfair to the supporting cast, imo.  A franchise QB is suppose to elevate the play of all of the players around them, not vice versa.  Just Bryce’s presence on the field requires the other 10 guys to almost be perfect every play because he can’t compensate for their mistakes.  I just think yesterday left such a bad taste in everyone’s mouth because it was a stark reminder of all of that.  Bryce lacks so much that it requires damn near perfection of everyone else for the offense to look not even great, but functional.

We’ll see how this season goes, and I’m hoping for the best, but I was ready to bail on the Bryce project after year 1, because again, I never wanted to draft him in the first place and the early returns coincided with that.  But if he can’t look functional with this supporting cast???  Man…  that is going to be inexplicably frustrating.

[Panthercougar68]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Probably not. If you plop Baker on this time right now, it's not exactly a sure thing we would be a playoff team.

Prime Drew Brees went 7-9 for 3 straight years till they fixed the team. We were riding high as panther fans and just missed that during that span.

Edited Sunday at 06:42 PM by Panthercougar68

[jb2288]

Okay wtf is this play call Dave https://x.com/baldynfl/status/1956848004532773289?s=46&t=ID24LbHaAiOwVOmMGHXcTA

 

edit: just remembered Brad is calling plays. Wish Canales wouldn’t experiment right now 

Edited Sunday at 06:53 PM by jb2288

[Icege]

14 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

My real fear is he will have the type of season that the team isn't ready to give up on him yet but he still hasn't proven worthy of being the long term guy either.

When was the last time a 1st round QB was unable to prove they should (or shouldn't) be that team's long term solution after 3 years of being the starter and then still ended up being that team's long term QB?

And that's my point, if he can't prove he's worthy of the extension this year, I'm not on board with bringing him back for year 4 as a prove it season.  I can accept losing this year because the defense is still not there yet, but the offense is built to put up points with a good QB.  

There really is no excuse for Bryce to not live up to his draft position this year, if he can't, why wait another year (or two if they pick up the 5th year) to delay getting a QB in place to give us a shot to win a SB?

I'm also not even saying that's what I think is going to happen, just what needs to happen if it comes to it.  I know I've been a vocal anti Bryce person, but I have nothing against him and hope he succeeds because it's what is best for the franchise, to have our solution already in house.

I get it, as unbelievable as that might sound. A lot of fans are terrified of the idea of a Daniel Jones situation with Bryce where he's essentially an albatross around their neck. However, it's a lot more difficult to see the similarities between the situations when we look at the tape. DJ was athletically gifted but had horrible processing. Bryce is not the most physically imposing player but has much, much better processing.

For all of those "How many QBs have..." questions with the intent to highlight how unlikely it is that he turns it around there is also a glaring lack of questions like "How many players have responded from being benched two games into the season and reclaimed not only a spot on the roster but their status as a starter? How many QBs were successful behind 6th/7th string starting guards? How many QBs have successful passing attacks with WRs that can't separate? How many rookie QBs have been successful when the coaching staff is practicing for their rendition of 'Mean Girls?' How many QBs have been able to keep their teams in games against SB contenders while carrying a historically bad defense?"

If fans can't see that Bryce is trending upward (and not just because of how low he was previously), they just don't want to at this point. I can't think of many QBs that are going to win boat races with a rookie WR1, a project WR2, and question marks at TE. These aren't excuses; they're simple facts. I don't think that many of the fans saying, "No more excuses for Bryce!" realize that in actuality there's no more excuses for themselves. I can't even begin to understand the mindset that playing behind a 6th string + 7th string starting guard duo is just an excuse, but I'm also aware that even the haters know it isn't because they tend to skirt right by that.

 

11 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Wallace was another big project player that really shouldn't be getting this time at all. I don't think "trial by fire" seems to be working. Another pick I disliked because we sorely needed a player to start and be effective immediately not. Ravens-type guy that could be a special teamer/backup for a while on a deep ass roster.

The Panthers obsession with these type of guys while having some of the worst rosters in franchise history is really fuging infuriating.

I like his athletic profile, but I prefer having more instinctual players at LB. Considering the reliance on the DL + DBs as well in Evero's scheme, having a Kuechly-esque type guy would be awesome.

It also makes me wonder... what if Shaq hadn't gotten hurt? Would they have brought him back for another year to mentor Trevin? How much different would things be for Trevin if he spent the first two seasons sitting and learning behind the vets (while maybe taking over for Josey this season).  

 

7 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

Really love and appreciate all you do for the board, Icege.

just wanted to piggyback off a few things you said here.  I trust your judgment of what you see, especially with your access to the all-22, whereas I just have the love looks to rely on.  

as far as Wallace, I said it yesterday in the game thread - that was not an encouraging showing.  Yes, he is around the ball/play quite often, but at least twice yesterday, he was in the correct spot but got bulldozed at the point of contact for additional yardage, and I mean like 2 to 3 yards or more each.  Ever since Tepper has taken over, there seems to be much more of a concerted effort by the organization to hype up certain guys, which is why I think people got fed up with the panthers bot.  It doesn’t feel genuine.  Sometimes it feels like a cover-up for mistakes and then as fans, we feel insulted.  Like why not just give it to us straight?  So, I say all of that to say, he has received a lot of hype from the organization, and yes, he does some things well, but it also feels like he has some glaring weaknesses and stuff like that point of contact thing I noticed yesterday - it feels like he’s being thrust into a position he might not be ready for.  And in a lot of instances with this Tepper regime, I fear that’s often the case, but the organization tries to gloss over it with fluff instead of just making sound football decisions and adjustments.  I think the fluff pisses people, me included, off.  I also think it has that affect because when what we see is different from what they’re telling us to see, how can we ever trust that you’ll make sound decisions and get the ship righted?  Idk, I’m rambling a little, but just something I noticed.  Again, Wallace has some great attributes, but he also is struggling in some obvious places and I am not sure he is ready for the role he is being placed in.

I feel like with this offensive lineup, any competent QB would easily be moving the ball down the field.  That’s why yesterday was so disappointing and I don’t think you can call any reaction to it an “over” reaction.  What Bryce did yesterday looked like that first year and a half all over again.  The entirety of those two series looked so dysfunctional and discouraging that I honestly had forgot about the “free play” throw.  That free play might have been the most damning thing of all and it didn’t even count.  Bryce could’ve chucked it as far downfield as he wanted.  The fact the receiver slowed down (from what I remember) and Bryce still underthrew it straight to a defender, instead of them both recognizing, “hey let’s go for the gusto!” All while Bryce got little boy’d upon throwing it.  It was just a shaking-my-head moment.  And again, the miscommunications, the running around with no real objective, the poor ball placement combined with the drops…  it was all bad.  And as I’ve stated before, my fear has been that Bryce would regress back to the mean.  As bad as his first year and a half was, that isn’t just some unfortunate coincidence.  That’s the baseline.  His end of season stretch last year was the exception, and my fear has been that he would be unable to maintain that.  Yesterday looked like he isn’t.  And honestly, yesterday also again reminded me of why I never wanted us to draft him in the worst ways because we are dissecting whether certain balls should be caught depending on where they were placed in relation to direction and position of defenders, and we are doing that because Bryce is so lacking in physical ability at the most important position in the game that it requires an almost razor thin margin of error for everyone around him.  It’s unfair to the supporting cast, imo.  A franchise QB is suppose to elevate the play of all of the players around them, not vice versa.  Just Bryce’s presence on the field requires the other 10 guys to almost be perfect every play because he can’t compensate for their mistakes.  I just think yesterday left such a bad taste in everyone’s mouth because it was a stark reminder of all of that.  Bryce lacks so much that it requires damn near perfection of everyone else for the offense to look not even great, but functional.

We’ll see how this season goes, and I’m hoping for the best, but I was ready to bail on the Bryce project after year 1, because again, I never wanted to draft him in the first place and the early returns coincided with that.  But if he can’t look functional with this supporting cast???  Man…  that is going to be inexplicably frustrating.

ty bby  

I haven't gotten to watch the all-22 for the defense, but after fast forwarding through the replay to see the first half defense again there were a lot of correctable things that showed up with Wallace. He seems to be getting the same treatment that XL + TMac are getting on offense in that they're keeping him in there to get as many reps as possible since they know they're going to lean heavily on him when the season starts. Things like over pursuits while in coverage, false steps in the run game, and some of the other problems he's shown are correctable (fortunately). Whether or not those corrections stick are another story that we'll just have to wait and see over the course of this season. I don't think we start seeing anything to give us hope for the defense until halfway through the season when these new pieces are finally used to one another. For all of his issues though, there's no question that he's the most talented LB on the roster at this moment.

re: Bryce and the first two series, I just finished the all-22 for the second series. I think there's going to be some things in there that might help relieve a little bit of the frustration with Bryce. The only play where I saw his physicality limit him was the very first play when he tossed it 40yds on the run. Considering that most QBs can throw it 50 - 60 yards when planted (only your howitzer-armed QBs are slinging it 70+), it's hard for me to go "Damn... he threw it 10yds shorter than average not because he was on the run but because he's too weak to throw deep in the NFL." I can acknowledge that stronger-armed QBs make those throws, but it's also important to admit that some of those rocket launchers are attached to statues that aren't going to be on the move (and in the case of some players with the arm + legs to make the play, do they have the mind to read and react in a game that gives you less than 3sec to make a decision and take action?).

What I'm seeing on the All-22 isn't a team having to compensate for Bryce's lack of physical traits, but Bryce having to compensate for the lack of execution by his teammates. That isn't to say he's perfect as that free play was uuuuuuuugly even if it was the right decision (and there's been plenty of other "BRYCE, PLS NO!" moments).

[kungfoodude]

12 hours ago, Icege said:

I like his athletic profile, but I prefer having more instinctual players at LB. Considering the reliance on the DL + DBs as well in Evero's scheme, having a Kuechly-esque type guy would be awesome.

It also makes me wonder... what if Shaq hadn't gotten hurt? Would they have brought him back for another year to mentor Trevin? How much different would things be for Trevin if he spent the first two seasons sitting and learning behind the vets (while maybe taking over for Josey this season).  

Yeah, it's hard to say on the Shaq thing. I do think the Jewell situation also added PT that might go to a more capable vet.

But, that's sort of what I generally mean by our draft "strategy." It seems like when we really NEED a player in a position group, we shoot for the moon on a high ceiling, low floor guy all to often. Then when they don't develop properly, it's a real problem.

We have had a bad habit during the Tepper era of not drafting football players but just athletic traits.