Tank vs Mingo

[Mr Mojo Risin]

12 minutes ago, Stingray3030 said:

With you completely - although I do give alot of credit to Trevor also - being a Clemson guy I watched every college game of his and he was the best college QB I ever saw.  His final year at Clemson he had no one to throw to and still put up crazy stats.  But I just think most of the people here like creating drama and crying cause they think they knew better before the draft.

Trevor definitely does deserve credit. He didn't achieve those numbers by mistake he put in a lot of effort and I'm sure he studied film. But it just goes to show that even generational can't miss prospects like Lawrence need some sort of help in the NFL and can't get by on just talent and name alone. That sentiment echoes even louder for Bryce Young because he has even more to overcome

[ECHornet]

2 hours ago, shaka said:

Chart is not mine, found on reddit.  PFF grades so take with a grain of salt but...

 

Mingo gets poor separation and has some of the worst catch point & YAC in the league.  Actually all of our receivers that are not Adam Thielen have very poor separation. 

 

Tank is up there with some high performing WRs.  

Not getting Aiyuk in return for CMC was a terrible mistake. 

[Stingray3030]

8 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

Trevor definitely does deserve credit. He didn't achieve those numbers by mistake he put in a lot of effort and I'm sure he studied film. But it just goes to show that even generational can't miss prospects like Lawrence need some sort of help in the NFL and can't get by on just talent and name alone. That sentiment echoes even louder for Bryce Young because he has even more to overcome

For sure - even just recently people are like "but Burrow....but Herbert....but Hurts...Tua...Trevor".  Burrow had Higgins, Mixon, and Boyd...then got Chase.  Hurts was not good rookie year then got Devonta, AJ Brown, Goedert.  Herbert had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Ekeler.  They all had Pro Bowl help or were given it soon after they got there.  Bryce doesn't have a single Pro Bowler on this offense - or even a significant starter to depend on.  When your best option is old, slow Thielen.....

Edited December 1, 2023 by Stingray3030

[Mr Mojo Risin]

5 minutes ago, Stingray3030 said:

For sure - even just recently people are like "but Burrow....but Herbert....but Hurts".  Burrow had Higgins, Mixon, and Boyd...then got Chase.  Hurts was not good rookie year then got Devonte, AJ Brown, Goedert.  Herbert had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Ekeler.  Bryce doesn't have a single Pro Bowler on this offense - or even a significant starter to depend on.  When your best option is old, slow Thielen.....

Yea almost like NFL teams gave us the blueprint on how to have your young QB be successful early on in their career. The Texans followed that blueprint. The Panthers did the complete opposite. They gutted their offense. Can you imagine what DJ Moore and CMC could be doing for Young right now? I'm sure Frank would still have a job but that's beside the point. Most QBs need weapons to be successful. That's why 95% of teams do everything they can to surround their QB with as much talent and firepower as possible. Except the Carolina Panthers.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Mr Mojo Risin

[frankw]

Idk he's not played particularly well but he's flashed occasionally at least. If I'm willing to acknowledge so many things in the offense and staff are poor around Bryce then I'm willing to give Mingo a chance with a clean slate now that Reich is gone too.

[GOAT]

we got hung up on him running crisp routes in shorts and a t-shirt and trying to strike gold with another Ole Miss receiver.

Tank Dell worked out with Stroud and lobbied with Stroud to be their pick and prove people he was worthy, hungry.

Our team needs more players like Tank, hungry, ready to prove people wrong. Not highly regarded players from big schools thinking they'll be able to do what they did vs Vanderbilt in the NFL.

[WhoKnows]

2 hours ago, BrianS said:

Here are some facts, do with them what you will.

When talking about Mingo as a prospect, I look at all WR's drafted after him this year.  Those drafted before him are irrelevant since we couldn't have chosen them while still drafting Bryce.  Of those 22, only five have outperformed Mingo:  Puka Nakua, Tank Dell, Jayden Reed, Demario Douglas and Rashee Rice.  Of those five, it's clear why Nakua and Rice have done so well.  Does Mingo need to improve?  Yes, of course.  But in truth he's performed about as well as you could expect a rookie WR to perform in his situation.

When looking at Fitterer (or Rhule, or whoever is running the show) as a GM in the draft, you've only got three years of data.  Of all players selected, the only one drafted in the first five rounds who is no longer on the team is Brandon Smith.  And FWIW, Smith is on the Eagles practice squad.  You can argue that our roster is low on talent - you won't be wrong.  But the guys "Fitterer" has chosen are generally still here.

Now, using this . . . 

. . . as your justification is weak sauce.  In fact, it's just this argument brought us Sam Darnold.  Yikes!  This is a terrible argument. 

Great players play great regardless of what's around them.  Joe Burrow was sacked 32 times as a rookie before his injury.  Had he played out a 17 game season at that rate he would have been sacked 54 times.  Bryce is on course to be sacked 68 times this year.  Not that different.  However, watching Joe Burrow play in 2020 made it VERY VERY CLEAR he was the real deal.  Burrow elevated his team and was SPECIAL.  As you might expect of the first pick in the draft.  Barry Sanders never had a team around him, but he was GREAT.  Cam Newton elevated his team.  Archie Manning never played on a winning team, but you could see how great he was just by watching.

Not sure what your definition of outperformance is but Hyatt, Downs, Wilson and Wicks all had more yards than Mingo among the WRs after Mingo and Mims is only 4 yards behind Mingo. That’s 9 WRs after Mingo outperforming him so far.

Also, Fitterer has been awful, period, and your characterization that his players are still on the team is a stretch. 8 players drafted out of 22 are not on the team anymore and his first draft still hasn’t even gotten to the last year of their rookie deal. You mention that only Brandon Smith is in the first 5 rounds and not on the team. You missed Taylor, Nixon and amazingly enough Corral. I’d also say I don’t see TMJ finishing out his rookie deal.

[Stingray3030]

7 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Not sure what your definition of outperformance is but Hyatt, Downs, Wilson and Wicks all had more yards than Mingo among the WRs after Mingo and Mims is only 4 yards behind Mingo. That’s 9 WRs after Mingo outperforming him so far.

Also, Fitterer has been awful, period, and your characterization that his players are still on the team is a stretch. 8 players drafted out of 22 are not on the team anymore and his first draft still hasn’t even gotten to the last year of their rookie deal. You mention that only Brandon Smith is in the first 5 rounds and not on the team. You missed Taylor, Nixon and amazingly enough Corral. I’d also say I don’t see TMJ finishing out his rookie deal.

At the time of the drafts and our free agent deals I was onboard with most everything we have done with Fitt - didn't like losing CMC and DJ but I understood and thought we got a fair deal.  But seeing the results and complete failure of so many free agents we picked up, and our high percentage of misses in the draft Fitterer has to be accountable.  We are almost as bad at drafting as the Hornets.  At some point we have to draft actual Pro Bowl talent....like anywhere....

[Shotgun]

14 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Not sure what your definition of outperformance is but Hyatt, Downs, Wilson and Wicks all had more yards than Mingo among the WRs after Mingo and Mims is only 4 yards behind Mingo. That’s 9 WRs after Mingo outperforming him so far.

Also, Fitterer has been awful, period, and your characterization that his players are still on the team is a stretch. 8 players drafted out of 22 are not on the team anymore and his first draft still hasn’t even gotten to the last year of their rookie deal. You mention that only Brandon Smith is in the first 5 rounds and not on the team. You missed Taylor, Nixon and amazingly enough Corral. I’d also say I don’t see TMJ finishing out his rookie deal.

Its amazing, with the Panther's awesome screen game you would think Mingo would be higher on that list.

[Soul Rebel]

I have zero idea how the body of work will end up for Mingo vs. Dell. It clearly favors Dell right now and it's not close. 

Based on the production in school, Mingo was a long-term solution at WR and was going to need some seasoning and polish. AJ Brown, who Mingo is often compared to, was a late-bloomer. I'd kill to have AJB here right now. 

Also, Dell is 24 years old compared to Mingo being 22. Not that this is an indicator, but Mingo's routes look lazy right now and he still has the college hangover of being better than everyone else.....not in the NFL. I think those two years could be a difference in maturity too. 

Lastly, it's the system. Watching this team on offense is painful. Everything looks so difficult, labor-intensive and super-slow to develop. Route concepts don't make sense, there's zero protection which means zero running game to set-up the pass. These defenses are sitting back and keeping everything in front of them beacuse they know Reich's system is trash. 

Every single player has regressed except for AT and Chuba. 

[Fright]

4 hours ago, AceBoogie said:

But again you seem to be fascinated with Bryce for some strange reason. Can’t imagine what that could be. Maybe Mr. Completely not feeling so complete? 

This is rich, coming from the guy who poo reacts everyone who speaks negatively of Young. 

[carpanfan96]

2 hours ago, Stingray3030 said:

I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote - I have a legitimate question.  If this was so obvious on his tape, then why did nearly everyone....coaches, analysts, GM's, teammates, opponents have this guy ranked as the #1?  Again not at all disagreeing....I honestly haven't reviewed the stuff you posted....I just don't understand why such a high percentage of the "experts" say Bryce was the clear #1 if they are wrong.....I don't care what all these "fans" who say they knew better thought, they could all be FOS.  I am honestly confused how so many would be wrong....the future of our franchise depends on us being right much more often - clearly Fitt is not the guy but I don't wanna get my hopes so high again.  I understand you are saying stats and analytics - but these guys KNOW good NFL QB's also.

It was obvious on tape and it's why I had him as qb3 behind Stroud and AR. 

He lead all draft eligible qb's in qb generated pressure, hits and sacks. Meaning he was responsible for him getting pressured, hit and sacked more than any other draftable qb's and it wasn't close actually.  

All of his draft profiles mention his tendency to go off script and not throw on time.  They all mention his arm strength and frame as well. It was widely known, scouts thought his brain and processing would make up for the above eventually.  

 

His tendency to go off script and wait longer than drop backs were designed for is also a reason his footwork looks so bad. 3 step and 5 step drops are mostly timing routes. 

Step , step , step, hitch and throw. 

Repeat for 5 step drops. 

They are also typically designed to go to one spot on the field with a quick read above or below the intial read. If not there hitch and checkdown or throw away. 

 

Watch his footwork during a game and you'll see what I mean. 

 

I still think he can be a good qb, but he needs more around him then Stroud or AR (if he stays healthy) will need to win. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by carpanfan96

[Paa Langfart]

4 hours ago, AceBoogie said:

But again you seem to be fascinated with Bryce for some strange reason.

Yeah all panthers fans are fascinated because we are stuck with this underperforming little person for at least another season as our qb and in order to draft him we mortgaged a poo pot full of good players and picks which could have turned into good or great players if we actually had a gm who was as good as the last one we had.  

 

[tukafan21]

Not really sure it's fair to compare him to Dell, he's like Puka in that the entire NFL missed on his evaluation.

Dell likely would have actually fallen further in the draft if not for Stroud anyways, after the Texans drafted him, he asked them to draft Dell on day 2.  They had created a friendship while preparing for the draft and worked out a lot together and realized they had a great connection, so he went to the team and told them about it after they took him.

Which also is what makes it worse that we ended up with Bryce, as if we had taken Stroud, probably a good chance we also ended up with Dell.