JJ Jansen on tanking

[PNW_PantherMan]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

To be fair, historically we have overperformed our lottery slot(in terms of probability) and had a pretty significant hand in making very poor draft picks for a long time.

We haven't had a good GM since Bob Bass with the original hornets.

[kungfoodude]

34 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

We haven't had a good GM since Bob Bass with the original hornets.

Not to say we haven't been fuged by the NBA just like a lot of the other small market teams like what just transpired but when we have had the ability to get a star or superstar, we have largely flubbed it royally. 

Jordan cast a massive shadow over the organization with his horrific talent evaluations for years and years.

[Basbear]

Anyone that believes getting a couple late season wins to end the season at 4-13 while picking 9th in each round, other than 2-15 with the 1st pick in each round is not being realistic. 

It happens nearly every other year, Jags gave the browns a insane package to move from 2nd to 5th. If not for late season pointless/everyone forgets late season wins the Panthers would have gotten that franchise changing package. Not to mention Panthers would have had Herbo and Sewell in other years, but nope. Do I need to bring up da bears???

The goal is long term winning in order to make the playoffs, one season to tank could spark it with a Burrow that's gets sacked 60 times on the way to a SB. 

I want to win as bad as anyone, but the second the Panthers are eliminated from playoff contention, the ONLY solution is to lose the remaining games to gain a better chance to never do that again. No other answer. 

[WhoKnows]

1 hour ago, WUnderhill said:

Tanking in the NFL isn’t really a thing and anybody wanting to bring the rigged lottery to the NFL has an ulterior motive.

It can happen but it’s nothing like the NBA. One player doesn’t make the difference in the NFL that one player can in the NBA. Also, there are just not the same amount of trades and even opportunities. Because the NFL isn’t just one stud away, you don’t get a lot of opportunities like Miami did with Tua or the Jets did with Zach Wilson. Both teams got multiple 1sts for players they traded (Jets had 5 1sts in 2021-2022 and Miami had 5 1sts in 2020-2021) and both got top 5 picks to select a QB. They both made some good and bad picks but Miami turned Tua into multiple playoff appearances even though Tua isn’t elite. Wilson was just so bad that the Jets still sucked. We had our opportunity in 2022 where we would have had 6 1sts and 4 2nds in 2023-2025 and probably had a top 5 pick in 2023 or 2024 for a QB without trading up. Unfortunately, Fitterer didn’t have the foresight to realize a full rebuild was necessary and when a team offers you 2 1sts and a 2nd for a non-QB like Tunsil and Burns, you take it.

One thing I wish trades had in the NFL that they have in the NBA is protected picks. A moron like Fitterer could have a top 5 protected pick so his terrible GMing doesn’t accidentally give the Bears the #1 overall pick because the moron Fitterer incorrectly thought we were 1 player away from the playoffs.

[Move the Panthers to Raleigh]

On 5/13/2025 at 2:39 PM, LinvilleGorge said:

Yeah, the lottery in concept is a good idea to prevent tanking. In reality, it's created a lot of controversy for the NBA because of the perception of rigging the system for outcomes desirable for the league.

“Perception” yeah, sure

[Shocker]

6 hours ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

We haven't had a good GM since Bob Bass with the original hornets.

Are we really talking about 30+ years ago?  Damn

[PNW_PantherMan]

4 minutes ago, Shocker said:

Are we really talking about 30+ years ago?  Damn

He was kind of my hero because he would always find a way to flip what we had into a good team.  He was a wizard with trades.  He had to work around Shinn not wanting to to give out big contracts.

[Icege]

19 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

Dude, I’m sorry but I don’t get your worries about this magical culture and fan involvement.

And that right there is the disconnect.

It’s not that you’re being misunderstood... it’s that you’re refusing to consider any perspective but your own. That kind of zero-sum absolutism doesn’t lead to learning nor understanding. It just creates dissonance and a distorted sense of certainty.

[ChibCU]

On 5/14/2025 at 5:05 PM, Basbear said:

Anyone that believes getting a couple late season wins to end the season at 4-13 while picking 9th in each round, other than 2-15 with the 1st pick in each round is not being realistic. 

This year, there's been enough positive talk from core players, free agents, and coaches to where I believe the culture building and momentum is more important than fighting for a worse record.

[WUnderhill]

On 5/14/2025 at 5:06 PM, WhoKnows said:

It can happen but it’s nothing like the NBA. One player doesn’t make the difference in the NFL that one player can in the NBA. Also, there are just not the same amount of trades and even opportunities. Because the NFL isn’t just one stud away, you don’t get a lot of opportunities like Miami did with Tua or the Jets did with Zach Wilson. Both teams got multiple 1sts for players they traded (Jets had 5 1sts in 2021-2022 and Miami had 5 1sts in 2020-2021) and both got top 5 picks to select a QB. They both made some good and bad picks but Miami turned Tua into multiple playoff appearances even though Tua isn’t elite. Wilson was just so bad that the Jets still sucked. We had our opportunity in 2022 where we would have had 6 1sts and 4 2nds in 2023-2025 and probably had a top 5 pick in 2023 or 2024 for a QB without trading up. Unfortunately, Fitterer didn’t have the foresight to realize a full rebuild was necessary and when a team offers you 2 1sts and a 2nd for a non-QB like Tunsil and Burns, you take it.

One thing I wish trades had in the NFL that they have in the NBA is protected picks. A moron like Fitterer could have a top 5 protected pick so his terrible GMing doesn’t accidentally give the Bears the #1 overall pick because the moron Fitterer incorrectly thought we were 1 player away from the playoffs.

Yeah not taking that Burns trade was infinitely stupid. We seem to be finally righting the ship but, imo, our biggest issue since Tepper bought the team has been coaches and management having a poor understanding of where our own roster is at. Starting with that idiot Rhule drinking his own kool-aid and thinking he was going to come and take the NFL by storm with Teddy freaking Bridgewater. Could have just kept Cam on the last year of his contract and gone from there but noooo that fat slob had to feel like he was the big man on campus. First round wizard Marty Hurney who, for whatever his faults, has a freaking HOF track record with first round picks, wants to trade up for Hebert but fat fug Rhule says no. Then we kept Rhule for 3 years which is absolutely unbelievable to me and every single year he treated our roster like it was just one player away trading our draft picks for Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield who have proven since leaving that Matt Rhule was an even bigger idiot of a coach than we thought. We finally seem to understand we are a ways off and trade CMC, but then we don’t take the actual good trade for Brian Burns who was never better than a run of the mill situational pass rusher. Then we botch the self scout of our OL (and team) after Wilks, even though they were bad before Wilks simplified the scheme, thinking they can execute whatever the hell Reich and Brown were trying to do. So we win a couple meaningless games playing dummy ball and Fitterer thinks we’re a player away again. And nobody even considers that having the slowest receiving corps imaginable with Damiere freaking Byrd, who can’t even make it to the season before being injured and cut, as your only hope for speed, coupled with the worst pass blocking OL I’ve ever seen, might lead to titanic levels of disaster.

The way Canales and Morgan have been adamant about constantly bringing competition at every position has been refreshing and made a huge difference. I was kind of worried that we had fallen into our old ways leading up to the draft with all the talk of defense only and worried that they might feel the offense was set. Very glad to see they were not complacent on that. My big thing now is I’m still wondering why Evero is still here. I can’t think of a single player who has gotten better under him, and the Broncos defense got better once he left. We’ll see.

[WhoKnows]

On 5/15/2025 at 8:33 AM, Icege said:

And that right there is the disconnect.

It’s not that you’re being misunderstood... it’s that you’re refusing to consider any perspective but your own. That kind of zero-sum absolutism doesn’t lead to learning nor understanding. It just creates dissonance and a distorted sense of certainty.

Nope, that’s not the disconnect. In 2022, our GM knew he was going QB in the 2023 draft. You are talking about risking fans involvement on a team that’s been basically bottom 3 in the NFL from 2018 to now. There is no risk when you are that bad. We were right to want Fitterer to tank in 2022 and get rid of anyone who could bring us big value and extra cap room for future years when we aren’t winning 2-7 wins a year. We knew we wanted a rookie QB so we didn’t trade assets for picks and get a better draft slot so we ended up only getting a 2nd for Burns and threw in DJ Moore plus an early 2nd instead of a 1st, which basically lost us an early 2nd.

The “risk” to our franchise’s losing culture ended up being around 4 1sts of total value. Yep, I refuse to listen to the other perspective that lost us around 4 1sts of value. At least our fan involvement is so high that our stadium isn’t chock full of visiting fans since we’ve won so much since 2022.

Again, you won’t change my mind that we should have tanked in 2022 and had another 2-4 Browns/Horns on this team.

[jfra78]

Damn the Tankers are already out here talking bout tanking?  

[Icege]

29 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Nope, that’s not the disconnect. In 2022, our GM knew he was going QB in the 2023 draft. You are talking about risking fans involvement on a team that’s been basically bottom 3 in the NFL from 2018 to now. There is no risk when you are that bad. We were right to want Fitterer to tank in 2022 and get rid of anyone who could bring us big value and extra cap room for future years when we aren’t winning 2-7 wins a year. We knew we wanted a rookie QB so we didn’t trade assets for picks and get a better draft slot so we ended up only getting a 2nd for Burns and threw in DJ Moore plus an early 2nd instead of a 1st, which basically lost us an early 2nd.

The “risk” to our franchise’s losing culture ended up being around 4 1sts of total value. Yep, I refuse to listen to the other perspective that lost us around 4 1sts of value. At least our fan involvement is so high that our stadium isn’t chock full of visiting fans since we’ve won so much since 2022.

Again, you won’t change my mind that we should have tanked in 2022 and had another 2-4 Browns/Horns on this team.

Aaand this confirms the core disconnect.

You view tanking as a guaranteed payoff with no organizational risk, even under a GM you didn't trust. That's not strategic thinking... that's revisionist certainty.

"No risk when you're that bad" is also a wild take when the team under Wilks rallied and was almost able to steal a playoff spot in a weak NFC South. That wasn't nothing... it was proof that the locker room still had fight.

Edited 2 hours ago by Icege

[ForJimmy]

So we should have sold off all of our talent and what?  Allowed Fitt to have an excuse to stay longer and use all that draft capital.  He was pretty bad at drafting...  I feel like we were going to struggle regardless until we got the right staff here.  Hopefully Tillis, Morgan, and Canales are the right group.