Two Athletic articles about QBs

[rebelrouser]

52 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Plenty of young QBs go to bad teams. That doesn't mean the QB isn't also part of the problem.

If we were smart and didn't draft Bryce until we had a better oline and wr's, he would have done much better. However, he would still have been a lower end qb with serious limitations and that would eventually have come out.  I feel like we have a fairly decent offense in place for a new qb now, but probably face a lot of change at GM, DC, and HC.  I feel like Morgan and Evero need to go at the end of the year so the new GM can bring in his own scouts and create a plan for the future (i.e., fire Canales and do not pick up BY's fifth year option at the end of '26).  

[Khyber53]

Bad teams with new coaches that want to make a splash with big passing games kill young QBs.

Solid teams that can lean on the run and play-action give a chance for QBs fresh out of college to grow and learn how to dictate a game.

A lot of these guys, and maybe even Bryce, aren't horrible but they are being asked to go in and be something unrealistic. They are expected to be able to put out raging dumpster fires after being handed a bucket and being told to go find some water. 

And I think we see some of these guys who were labeled as busts eventually developing into serviceable, sometimes decent, sometimes quite good QBs when they land at a well-built team with good coaching and a solid identity. Mayfield, and Darnold are two that come to mind right now. And the two Joneses are certainly showing more in Indy and San Fran than they'd ever really shown before.

But we're a shoddily built team that has been weakly coached into a softer style of football that puts crazy amounts of pressure on young QBs. Heck, even Andy Dalton with his experience really couldn't sustain any results here. 

 

[Jay Roosevelt]

Teams focus too much on finding a QB. They need to focus more on finding the right coach + QB combo.

[CanadianCat]

47 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I would push back on the idea that Newton came into a dumpster fire. He came into a team with solid bones/talent that needed a retool, which we did. I promise you, had we plopped prime Cam into the mess that was our organization that Bryce arrived into, we certainly still wouldn't be talking about playoffs. Far better results, no doubt, but that is an easy bar to clear.

 

Thats fair. 

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Teams focus too much on finding a QB. They need to focus more on finding the right coach + QB combo.

been saying this forever.   Panthers specialize in the cramming together random parts and then act confused when it doesn't work. 

[CRA]

in fact the only real logical plan (even if you didn't love it)......was the start of the Rhule era.  You bring in Teddy B for 2 years paired w/ Joe Brady to get a functional base up and running.   You draft a QB at some point to bring up and insert into that foundation. 

But Teddy hurt feelings and IMO ever since then, Carolina has lacked any sort of reasonable vision plan on offense.  Then we went right into reject win now football.  Then we said, nope, lets draft a unicorn kid and pair him with coaches whose scheme he doesn't fit....and let's do it all day 1.  

[Bear Hands]

2 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

As far as having a plan for bryce, in reichs defense, he wanted to sit young but was overridden.  Reich isnt some McVay level genius but he is a competent nfl coach if the owners would leave him alone

He always had a type and a fixed system.  We brought him in to collaborate with different philosophies from McVay's/and other systems.  Totally uneven marriage because Reich didn't actually seem that adaptable.  I don't even think it's entirely on him, he had a long career, he wasn't just going to change everything he's done to good effect.

Reich preferred large receivers with maybe one gadget dude.  He needed at minimum an average (taller) QB with an above average arm.  To execute the throws in the middle of the field, you need the stature to stand tall in the pocket and rip.  Nothing spectacular, a heavy dose of zone running with a passing game w/mesh & triangle concepts. 

Nothing fit.  A big part was Fitterer wasn't really pairing players & system.  He was building from a different background and out of context/his depth. 

At least now, it seems Dan/Brandon/Dave are more or less on the same level with vision and scheme. Once we get competent Defense and QB play, maybe we'll start to see something aight.  Doubt it's anytime soon.

 

 

[XClown1986]

The successful teams in the NFL right now have one thing in common: Patience. Not just with their QB, but with every facet of the program. There are going to be successes and failures, but no one panics and makes reactive decisions. Look at the Eagles, the Bills, the Ravens, the Packers, and hell, even the (newly successful) Lions. All of them showed patience with their QB's growth, let their coaches do their jobs, have drafted well, developed their own players, and plugged holes in their roster and organization with players and situations that made sense.

That's what we need. And if that isn't what we have now, we need to make moves to get it there. If that means they need to blow it up to start over, then blow it up and start it over the right way. If that means to change their approach from top to bottom, change it now. But the blueprint of success is out there in the league, teams just think they know better, or they don't have the discipline to follow through.

[PanthersATL]

14 minutes ago, XClown1986 said:

 Look at the Eagles, the Bills, the Ravens, the Packers, and hell, even the (newly successful) Lions.

Bills: had a bunch of horrible years
Packers: were really really bad in the mid 80s
Lions: historically bad, like, forever. Look at them now
Dolphins: only team to go 16-0. This week? Bottom of the barrel
New England: 132 years of wins under Bill+Tom. Since then, horrible
Tampa: laughing stock until their uniform/stadium redesign

point is that winning can be cyclical. We all wants wins NOW but we may have to wait for all the pieces to fall into place

[UnluckyforSome]

After Manning's rookie season, where he threw a record 28 interceptions, and guided the Colts to a 3-13 mark, surely spent that offseason watching true crime shows on Netflix, playing GTA and just chilling.

[d-dave]

11 minutes ago, XClown1986 said:

The successful teams in the NFL right now have one thing in common: Patience. Not just with their QB, but with every facet of the program. There are going to be successes and failures, but no one panics and makes reactive decisions. Look at the Eagles, the Bills, the Ravens, the Packers, and hell, even the (newly successful) Lions. All of them showed patience with their QB's growth, let their coaches do their jobs, have drafted well, developed their own players, and plugged holes in their roster and organization with players and situations that made sense.

That's what we need. And if that isn't what we have now, we need to make moves to get it there. If that means they need to blow it up to start over, then blow it up and start it over the right way. If that means to change their approach from top to bottom, change it now. But the blueprint of success is out there in the league, teams just think they know better, or they don't have the discipline to follow through.

Great point!  The quotes from O'Connell about teams failing rookie Qbs and the one about how you coach them after 3 picks and a loss were really interesting.  To me, an idiot with a keyboard, it means NFL teams need to be patience if they are going to have quality QB play.

So bringing me to Bryce, is there some benefit to being patient.  I know it's not a particularly popular opinion around here, and even I am having a hard time wrapping my head around it.  Most QBs, when benched lose their confidence.  It takes a LONG time to get it back.  Bryce on the other hand was benched, and came back a different player.  I feel like that's worth a lot more than the physical talents of a guys like AR15...

I think Bryce has the mental make up to be a good NFL QB.  His problem will always be his tools.  Now it's on coaching to work around that.  Bryce is more physically gifted than late years Drew Brees (low bar, I know).  

While I'm content to see what happens this season, there's a small part of me that says...maybe we should see what grows?  (let me duck and hide from the well earned vitriol the Panthers have earned).

Then again, I agree that some guys get it while others just don't.  I'm still hoping for the Panthers and Bryce to find success this season.  But if not, I won't be too surprised if the plug is pulled and there is a restart.

[XClown1986]

38 minutes ago, PanthersATL said:

Bills: had a bunch of horrible years
Packers: were really really bad in the mid 80s
Lions: historically bad, like, forever. Look at them now
Dolphins: only team to go 16-0. This week? Bottom of the barrel
New England: 132 years of wins under Bill+Tom. Since then, horrible
Tampa: laughing stock until their uniform/stadium redesign

point is that winning can be cyclical. We all wants wins NOW but we may have to wait for all the pieces to fall into place

I was giving examples of current, successful franchises. Not entire histories. Every team in the NFL has sucked at one point or another. The teams that are successful right now, and have been for several years, have shown patience in their process.

[Shotgun]

58 minutes ago, XClown1986 said:

The successful teams in the NFL right now have one thing in common: Patience. Not just with their QB, but with every facet of the program. There are going to be successes and failures, but no one panics and makes reactive decisions. Look at the Eagles, the Bills, the Ravens, the Packers, and hell, even the (newly successful) Lions. All of them showed patience with their QB's growth, let their coaches do their jobs, have drafted well, developed their own players, and plugged holes in their roster and organization with players and situations that made sense.

That's what we need. And if that isn't what we have now, we need to make moves to get it there. If that means they need to blow it up to start over, then blow it up and start it over the right way. If that means to change their approach from top to bottom, change it now. But the blueprint of success is out there in the league, teams just think they know better, or they don't have the discipline to follow through.

Another thing successful teams do is hold their players accountable. First you have to earn a starting position, its not just given because of when you were drafted. You play bad? You sit on the bench. We don't do that here. Hell you can be one of the worst players on the team and be named captain.  

[XClown1986]

Just now, Shotgun said:

Another thing successful teams do is hold their players accountable. First you have to earn a starting position, its not just given because of when you were drafted. You play bad? You sit on the bench. We don't do that here. Hell you can be one of the worst players on the team and be named captain.  

That's part of being patient too. Not rushing players into roles they aren't ready for. Make them earn it. If you convince yourself that "so and so" needs to start because they were a first round pick, even though they have done nothing to earn it, you have set up both team and player for failure. You can convince yourself all day long that "there is no substitute for game experience" but if the guy can't do his job in practice, he can't do it in a game. Not consistently, anyway. 

Teams like the Steelers, the Ravens and the Packers ROUTINELY bench rookies to start off with and no one bats an eyelash. Even if the team is losing. Because that's what they do. They have set the precedent. The players have to show they are ready. Then they get their chance.