Bryce's Achilles Heel Is Not What You Think It Is

[Seltzer]

3 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

sure but bryces arm is not better, no fuging way

Im never not impressed by how confidently wrong you are.

I've watched probably 200 NFL QBs play live. This talk about Bryce's arm strength is retarded, pure and simple. Bryce can make every throw an NFL QB needs to make in any circumstance.

Does he have an arm that makes you go wow all the time? No, but very few QBs truly do.

Bryce has plenty of zip on the ball when he wants. That TD to XL was a frozen rope. He throws to the opposite hash and outside all the time with no problem.

Bryce's arm is objectively stronger than Cam's post-injury. I've seen both live multiple times and I know.

And Cam could still play QB well without his rocket launcher.

OPs point remains. QB success relies on a lot of nebulous things.

Obviously you dont like Bryce. But his success is not going to be bc he doesn't have the arm strength.

Its embarrassing this is a thing. Go to some games and actually educate yourself.

 

[mrcompletely11]

12 minutes ago, Seltzer said:

Im never not impressed by how confidently wrong you are.

I've watched probably 200 NFL QBs play live. This talk about Bryce's arm strength is retarded, pure and simple. Bryce can make every throw an NFL QB needs to make in any circumstance.

Does he have an arm that makes you go wow all the time? No, but very few QBs truly do.

Bryce has plenty of zip on the ball when he wants. That TD to XL was a frozen rope. He throws to the opposite hash and outside all the time with no problem.

Bryce's arm is objectively stronger than Cam's post-injury. I've seen both live multiple times and I know.

And Cam could still play QB well without his rocket launcher.

OPs point remains. QB success relies on a lot of nebulous things.

Obviously you dont like Bryce. But his success is not going to be bc he doesn't have the arm strength.

Its embarrassing this is a thing. Go to some games and actually educate yourself.

 

who can argue with this level of intellect?  Double negatives and all

[Luciu5]

I think people get confused with arm strength vs touch or something. Either way, his arm strength aint the best but it's good enough. He can rocket a short/medium pass into a tight window. He can get the ball downfield 40+ yards no problem. He has thrown plenty of medium/deep out route sideline throws. I have no idea what percentage compared to other QBs, but I feel like he's throwing to the sideline every game. There were multiple sideline throw/catches on Sunday. The fact this is still getting mentioned here is sad. How many times does he have to throw a sideline throw before y'all believe he can throw a sideline throw?

What he cannot do? Send the ball 40 yards down the field while falling to the ground getting hit. Yes he's limited compared to some NFL QBs, but not to the level where I would think he's not physically capable of playing NFL football.

[Bear Hands]

Strongly disagree with the premise here.

Without getting too into it, the biggest gripe for many has always been his footwork and pocket presence. 

Shallow drops, happy feet, bad awareness - his overall technique is highly unconventional and not beneficial to his size/frame.  His upper body gets mad out of sync with his lower, drops back parallel to the LOS, erratic behavior.

When you take that to the NFL level, you get swallowed up. And he got shellshocked and started bailing way too soon on plays. Unnecessary throwaways when he should step UP into the pocket and hit.  

He got away with it in school because sooo much of his work was out of structure or quick hits to Jamo. 

He was able to not bail early and stick in the pocket this last game. He also was dropping deeper than he usually does to create sight lanes. He can’t really outrun DLs so he needs to create that space via drop to survey properly. When he does these bs skip hops in the gun, he barely drops and is flooded. He needs to stay active with his feet but learn to step into the pocket more. 

His average arm when he’s not doing this right turns Pennington esque.

[OldhamA]

9 hours ago, Manna said:

Whenever I watch non-Alabama QBs in the NFL throw I find myself marveling at the velocity and intensity of their passes. I have to ground myself because those are what NFL arms are supposed to look like and I’m just so used to seeing a weak noodle arm passer. He makes good throws here and there, but his norm is that weak arm. 
If it’s not genetically impossible, is it “bad” for a QB to develop arm strength in the offseason? 

Here's how Young would 'develop' arm strength - setting his fuging feet.

His footwork is atrocious. He throws from his tiptoes when he's in the pocket - which means he gets absolutely no hip rotation or core into his throws. They're all 'arm' throws, which is why they all look so weak. 

He has made some good throws when he's on the run - y'know when he can get his body into the throw - but even those are regulation throws I'd expect any NFL QB to make. 

[CPF4LIFE]

1 hour ago, Seltzer said:

Im never not impressed by how confidently wrong you are.

I've watched probably 200 NFL QBs play live. This talk about Bryce's arm strength is retarded, pure and simple. Bryce can make every throw an NFL QB needs to make in any circumstance.

Does he have an arm that makes you go wow all the time? No, but very few QBs truly do.

Bryce has plenty of zip on the ball when he wants. That TD to XL was a frozen rope. He throws to the opposite hash and outside all the time with no problem.

Bryce's arm is objectively stronger than Cam's post-injury. I've seen both live multiple times and I know.

And Cam could still play QB well without his rocket launcher.

OPs point remains. QB success relies on a lot of nebulous things.

Obviously you dont like Bryce. But his success is not going to be bc he doesn't have the arm strength.

Its embarrassing this is a thing. Go to some games and actually educate yourself.

The sideline throw to Horn last Sunday would have been a TD if horn didn't have to almost completely stop on his route to catch it. Its not soley based off the fact  that the ball got there, its the fact that receivers have to constantly adjust on routes to make these catches. He has also made other similar throws this season already. You are either blind to it or not truly paying attention to what you are watching.

[OldhamA]

1 hour ago, MechaZain said:

I think his size is to blame for that though. Dude has pretty high level awareness within his field of view IMO but it's limited because of his height. 

Does he?

Brees used to obliterate us because he always seemed to know where the blitzer was coming from and threw behind it.

I've seen Young get blindsided by a blitzer more times than I care to count. 

So either he does nowhere near enough film study or he doesn't understand what he's looking at when he's on the field. Either way, it's a long way removed from the 'galaxy brained processor' they sold themselves on. 

[CRA]

20 minutes ago, Luciu5 said:

I think people get confused with arm strength vs touch or something. Either way, his arm strength aint the best but it's good enough. He can rocket a short/medium pass into a tight window. He can get the ball downfield 40+ yards no problem. He has thrown plenty of medium/deep out route sideline throws. I have no idea what percentage compared to other QBs, but I feel like he's throwing to the sideline every game. There were multiple sideline throw/catches on Sunday. The fact this is still getting mentioned here is sad. How many times does he have to throw a sideline throw before y'all believe he can throw a sideline throw?

What he cannot do? Send the ball 40 yards down the field while falling to the ground getting hit. Yes he's limited compared to some NFL QBs, but not to the level where I would think he's not physically capable of playing NFL football.

I mean, I can get a ball downfield 40 yards.  There would be a couple massive issues with me doing it.   My ball placement would be off the charts bad.  Second, for me to get it 40 yards I'm gonna have to moon it......which would give DBs the opportunity to make plays on balls that wouldn't exist if a better QB were throwing it.  Which is all an exaggerated explanation of the Bryce issue. 

To many play the literal game w/ Bryce when it comes defending him.  Every NFL QB likely can loft one up around 50 yards.  Every QB in the NFL can't get a ball 30 yards downfield in the same windows.  Or the same ball placement.  That's the Bryce issue.    But I also think mixed into that is just his QB DNA.    Take a young Brees, it was in his DNA to stress defenses and takes shots.  He would flat out be Delhomme-ish at times.  Which is coverage and assignment altering.  Brees would throw balls into triple coverage 40 yards downfield.  Is that smart? Sometimes it is.  Not because the play gets made but you force the secondary to play honest.  

[CRA]

1 hour ago, Seltzer said:

Bryce can make every throw an NFL QB needs to make in any circumstance.

 

[strato]

10 hours ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

He’s overthrown WRs numerous times deep,I don’t think his arm strength there is a problem, def seems to be and issue in the 20-30 yard range, I don’t see a lot of outbreaking routes being completed, whether that’s due to his lack of ability to drive the ball to the outside hash or our WRs, especially XL cornering at the top of there routes.

regardless of his weaknesses, the question is can a team be built around him to mask them, or can he overcome those weaknesses and adapt.

I know it’s beating a dead horse, but something big is missing from Bryce’s qb play that’s leading to so many sub 200 yard passing games, all signs lead to a physical trait that’s the cause of this, wether it’s arm strength or his height

 

My only logical conclusion for these overthrows downfield which I’d estimate they are generally in the 30-35 yard range give or take, is from watching that video I referenced of the two NFL QBs and their test with the targets and the radar gun. I posted a summary of it somewhere last night - it basically showed their accuracy with normal throwing effort and contrasted/compared it throws made with maximum effort. A ‘rare back and throw it as hard as you can’ fastball, if you will. 
They were missing high a lot. It wasn’t really a lot because they only made a few throws like that but the tendency was to overthrow, overshoot, etc. 

So maybe that is a factor there. It kind of stands to reason that he is trying to get more on it. 

Edited 1 hour ago by strato

[kungfoodude]

49 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Strongly disagree with the premise here.

Without getting too into it, the biggest gripe for many has always been his footwork and pocket presence. 

Shallow drops, happy feet, bad awareness - his overall technique is highly unconventional and not beneficial to his size/frame.  His upper body gets mad out of sync with his lower, drops back parallel to the LOS, erratic behavior.

When you take that to the NFL level, you get swallowed up. And he got shellshocked and started bailing way too soon on plays. Unnecessary throwaways when he should step UP into the pocket and hit.  

He got away with it in school because sooo much of his work was out of structure or quick hits to Jamo. 

He was able to not bail early and stick in the pocket this last game. He also was dropping deeper than he usually does to create sight lanes. He can’t really outrun DLs so he needs to create that space via drop to survey properly. When he does these bs skip hops in the gun, he barely drops and is flooded. He needs to stay active with his feet but learn to step into the pocket more. 

His average arm when he’s not doing this right turns Pennington esque.

That's really what people are seeing with the arm strength issues. He has below average NFL arm strength but it's not Chad Pennington-esque. He still just struggles keeping a good base when he is throwing the ball. His fundamentals are still a work in progress and when the pocket breaks down or his internal clock goes off, back to bad habits. 

As you said, he isn't athletic enough to consistentlu hurt people with his feet so he has to get better about keeping his mechanics tight on a consistent basis. He doesn't have elite Cam/Allen/Mahomes/Jackson/etc arm abilities to rely on when his base isn't set. 

[strato]

3 hours ago, TD alt said:

I mean, you're acting like we don't see the tippy-toe bunny hops, jump throws more than normal (with both feet dangling in the air every which a way), and off-platform but off-balance throws that arrive short or sail high. Could that be bad mechanics due to being short? Could a seeming propensity to bail the pocket towards the sidelines early as opposed to sitting in the pocket tall and strong, surveying his reads, be an attempt at trying to see an open throwing lane?

I'm not saying that what you're saying isn't a contributing factor to what has been an underwhelming display of executing the QB position, but this is year three, and if the lightbulb hasn't switched on by now---if you haven't figured out that guys are faster, stronger and generally more athletic, then what's it going to take? It's hard to forget that "mental processing" was supposed to be Bryce Young's superpower. Are you telling me that he can't nail down such an easy concept as, "I can't get away with the things I did in college at the pro level," is that right? If he can't get past that, then that surely limits his ability to successfully execute all the other stuff. 

Look, I'm not trying to be flippant. I acknowledge that playing pro football is more complex than a lot of fans realize, but all we can do, as fans, is observe. One of my favorite things to do is just look at the greater picture and think what part human nature is playing in the many decisions that are being made or have to be made. You're absolutely correct that fans don't know exactly what's going on, but that is by design, and in many ways it's just the nature of the beast. Some things we can't know. That being said, the professionals screw the hell up all the time. The professionals disagree all the time. These disagreements can be within the same franchise or from franchise to franchise. And sometimes these decisions are all over the place, so excuse me if I ain't exactly buying the I-know-more-than-thee sentiment and that that means that professionals always make better decisions than fans would about certain players. Some of this stuff is simply luck or a crapshoot.

I see a bit of a ‘you Bryce doubters just don’t understand’ condescension and not just from one person. 

[ForJimmy]

2 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

sure but bryces arm is not better, no fuging way

Then Burrow? I guess my point is Burrow arm strength is average to below average in the NFL so you could make the argument Young’s is close or better. It’s probably too close to really tell. The big difference is Burrow is way more fundamentally sound with great pocket awareness. This makes his passes look better IMO. 

[Mr. Scot]

Basically, gunslinger mentality.

Most gunslinger types are at least a little more athletically gifted than Young though. They tend to be "big arm" types or strong running QBs.

So what we're ultimately talking about here is a gunslinger brain in a system quarterback body.