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Short arms, this time Tyler Linderbaurm

AU-panther

By AU-panther,
in Carolina Panthers

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LinvilleGorge Grand Master

LinvilleGorge

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, Chad_Cota said:

Unless your name is Quenton Nelson 

Great example of what I'm talking about. Best IOL in the game. Zero playoff wins through four seasons. Colts have a roughly 55% winning percentage during that time.

It's just not an impact position. At long as your IOL isn't a liability, check that box and move on but don't dump premium picks or big time cap space into it.

The Buffalo Bills drafted Josh Allen with the very next draft pick. OUCH.

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TheMostInterestingMan Mentor

TheMostInterestingMan

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

The only argument I can make for it is if you're a team drafting in the top 10 due to a pick acquired via trade and you're a contender with IOL as one of your key needs. I'd still be trying to trade down.

But if you're a team picking on the top 10 earned by sucking ass, you can't afford to take IOL in the top 10. Positional value matters. If you put a HOF center on our roster what does it do? How many wins do we add? Any?

Well for me, that would kind of be the ideal scenario. Draft a guy that could be an anchor at C but not add any wins this season. Next year has a few really promising QB prospects. I don't want to add wins. I want to build up the line this season and have it ready to go for our QB of the future next year. Now I don't have any confidence in the franchise to show that kind of patience or foresight anymore, but that is my ideal scenario. If we could trade with someone, add a 2023 pick and get Linderbaum and add 0 wins to out outcome this season... thats the dream, honestly.

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CPantherKing Grand Master

CPantherKing

Posted
Posted (edited)

If we were to use these standards to rule out players, then the Panthers never have...

Sam Mills

Steve Smith

Jordan Gross

Ryan Kalil

Jake Delhomme

Using measurables to rule out a player is nonsense. This should only be used as a tiebreaker when you have to decided between 2 players of equal championship value. If you have not found a championship value in a player, then there is no need to even have a combine.

Tom Brady, Barry Sanders, Terrell Davis, Jerry Rice, Steve Smith, Cooper Kupp, and Antonio Gates are my all time offensive skills team. Anthony Munoz, Randall McDaniel, Jeff Saturday, John Hannah, and Jackie Slater are my all time OL. Let's just say you'd rule them all out if you went by measurables.

Would you want this offense?

The best clutch QB of all time, RBs who made 100 yard games look easy and kept defenses honest, triple crown WRs, a TE TD machine who could stretch the seams, great pass blocking OLs who could maul with leverage in the running game.

Coaches need to get better at planning around their players strengths instead of ruling them out based on their weaknesses.

Edited by CPantherKing
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PNW_PantherMan Grand Master

PNW_PantherMan

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6 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Positional value matters. If you put a HOF center on our roster what does it do? How many wins do we add? Any?

I feel that but at the same time, is that true for any position except QB?  Even a top tier pass rusher probably isn't adding wins by himself.  Or the best CB in the league.

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trueblade Grand Master

trueblade

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Great example of what I'm talking about. Best IOL in the game. Zero playoff wins through four seasons. Colts have a roughly 55% winning percentage during that time.

It's just not an impact position. At long as your IOL isn't a liability, check that box and move on but don't dump premium picks or big time cap space into it.

The Buffalo Bills drafted Josh Allen with the very next draft pick. OUCH.

Using this same logic and metrics, you could look at playoff wins and overall winning percentage with Joe Thomas and the Browns and come to the conclusion that OT isn't an impact position.

I don't think that's accurate. That would indicate to me playoff wins and even overall winning percentage of a team with an outstanding player at one position is an unreliable metric for making any conclusions about the "impact" of the position.

Assigning wins and loses to any one person or even position seems fraught with issues. Even doing this with the most intuitive of impact positions, the QB, hasn't proven reliable. The Rams gave up a "winning" QB (Goff) for a "losing" QB (Stafford) with outstanding results.

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LinvilleGorge Grand Master

LinvilleGorge

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19 minutes ago, trueblade said:

Using this same logic and metrics, you could look at playoff wins and overall winning percentage with Joe Thomas and the Browns and come to the conclusion that OT isn't an impact position.

I don't think that's accurate. That would indicate to me playoff wins and even overall winning percentage of a team with an outstanding player at one position is an unreliable metric for making any conclusions about the "impact" of the position.

Assigning wins and loses to any one person or even position seems fraught with issues. Even doing this with the most intuitive of impact positions, the QB, hasn't proven reliable. The Rams gave up a "winning" QB (Goff) for a "losing" QB (Stafford) with outstanding results.

OL is a facilitator position, period. It allows you to get the best out of your skill position players but if you're trash there, well you're just trash.

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PootieNunu Grand Master

PootieNunu

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

To be fair your comparing a massive guard to a center. Centers are generally smaller. But I agree he is small even still.

Jason Kelce is 6'3" 295 pounds.

All he has done is been 1st team all pro 4 times and one of the best Centers in the league for his career. 

Linderbaum is 6'3" 291 pounds. He has been elite in college. Do I want him at 6? He is not my first choice, but I think folks are making too much out of his size. 

 

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    • LinvilleGorge
      2027: Sharing my thoughts on the cap without a lotta research

      By LinvilleGorge · Posted

      No. Physical tools alone aren't enough. There are plenty of examples of draft busts to support that. Aost all of them had the physical tools and that wasn't enough. But Bryce is a perfect example of the opposite. Absolutely elite intangibles aren't enough either. If you simply don't have the physical abilities all the football intelligence and work ethic in the world won't be enough to overcome it. Just look to the sidelines every Sunday. We call those people "coaches".
    • SmokinwithWilly
      2027: Sharing my thoughts on the cap without a lotta research

      By SmokinwithWilly · Posted

      As much as I despise Billy B, his philosophy on QBs is how I would approach things if I were a GM. You always keep looking for your next starter.  He has Bledsoe, who got injured and his backup ended up being the GOAT. Even while he had that going, he kept getting his next guy and developing them. When Brady got hurt, Cassel stepped in and went 11-5 and they missed the wild card by dumb luck. Who knows how far they would have gone if they had gotten in. Jimmy Gs career started in NE. There were others, but he always kept looking.  You can't be afraid to keep looking for your next starter, but it looks like we're afraid to look for more than a marginal one. If you're going to offer a $25m contract with incentives, that screams marginal QB. It also screams you're just a transition until we find our guy. After a 10 or 11 win season, he's not accepting that offer. And then you're in a Daniel Jones situation. Do you pay for a year of success and pray it wasn't a one year wonder?  To this point, Bryce has really produced nothing, yet for whatever reason, our FO has not even sniffed at the idea that we need a real QB room with real QBs. Dalton was never starter potential, Plummer was a joke. KP certainly isn't, neither is Grier.  Our approach to the QB room needs to be one of strength not fear. Bring in guys who can compete or who you think can compete. This is THE elite position, in an elite sport, paid premium salary, where production matters. Either you produce or you can lose your job. It's not mean, it's just the reality of the position.  And I'm really just tired of our candy ass approach to it. 
    • LinvilleGorge
      2027: Sharing my thoughts on the cap without a lotta research

      By LinvilleGorge · Posted

      If you plug Bryce onto the Pro Bowl roster you might have a chance to compete for a SB. If he's surrounded by top tier talent with a top tier defense on the other side, a field flipping punter, and a kicker good from 60+ you might have a chance. But that means you basically have to recreate Saban's Bama in the NFL and that's impossible... and Bryce couldn't win a championship in that environment either. What the Panthers didn't realize when they got so obsessed with his "PG mentality" was that what they were looking st was a "barely checks the box PG". The basketball equivalent of Bryce would be an undersized PG with marginal athleticism who can make the basic plays but adds nothing to the team in terms of elevating the overall team. Not a great shooter, not a great defender, not a great driver. Just a guy who can basically get you into the offense and be a matador on defense. Basically a placeholder while you look to upgrade the PG position. 
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