Vikings tried to trade up for Bryce Young?

[frankw]

If our staff the front office and scouts think his arm strength is more than fine along with other teams that were looking at moving up for him I think it should be one of our lesser concerns as fans. He's only 21 and he will be hitting the weight room. Maybe let's get a look at him in training camp and preseason before declaring his arm strength this or that.

[tukafan21]

I think what people are missing in the arm strength debate with Bryce, is that yes, he has an adequate arm, which allows him to make all the throws with the necessary zip on them, but that's because he knows his limits and stays within them, which is great.

But he just flat out doesn't have that monster arm strength, and even with an NFL workout regimen, he's never going to have THAT kind of arm, which isn't the worst thing as many NFL QB's have been successful without it.

However, it does eliminate a growing element in the NFL today, and that's the uber deep ball to a speedster running a go-route.  Beyond it just being a great weapon to have as it can create monster game-changing plays, it also helps force defenses to account for it on every snap and tends to keep a safety deeper and thus take a defender out of the play on many snaps.

We won't ever have that with Bryce unfortunately, and for as great as Tyreek was with the Dolphins last year, it was clear that Tua doesn't have that monster arm either and it hurt their ability to tell Tyreek to run as fast as he can and just outrun everyone for a 70 yard bomb that guys like Mahomes can throw.  So many times last year Tyreek had the defense woefully beat and was already running behind them when he had to slow up and almost stop to catch the pass because Tua couldn't throw it far enough to allow him to keep running.

So I think people knocking his arm strength, at least I know it is with myself, isn't about him not being able to make the throws that he needs to make, but that it eliminates the possibility of a play that is becoming very useful in today's NFL, that's all.

Edited May 12, 2023 by tukafan21

[poundaway]

 

[tukafan21]

11 minutes ago, poundaway said:

 

Not sure this video makes the argument that you think it does

First pass was about 55 air yards, actually probably a few yards less, second pass only went 50, the third one was about 60, maybe a yard or two less.

If that's the video that shows off his max arm strength, then it's easily bottom half of the NFL among starting QB's and likely in the bottom 10 in the end.

Again, it's adequate and serviceable, but the top strong armed QB's can throw it that far from a crowded pocket with the flick of the wrist, he needed perfectly clean pocket and be able to step into those throws as clean as can be to get it there.

And again, as I pointed out in my last post, it's less even about being able to make that throw as much as just having the threat of it in your back pocket to keep a safety deeper. 

There are a lot of positives about Bryce that people can talk up, but arm strength just isn't one of them, it's probably his biggest actual weakness if you don't count injury concern as that's not quite as tangible of a thing like arm strength is.

Edited May 12, 2023 by tukafan21

[poundaway]

12 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Again, it's adequate and serviceable, but the top strong armed QB's can throw it that far from a crowded pocket with the flick of the wrist

Why compare Bryce to QBs that we could not possibly get?
We called the Bills, they wouldn't take DJ for Allen. /sarc

We've been over and over this.  When it comes to pressure/crowded pockets, Bryce is the best in this class. 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by poundaway

[poundaway]

28 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Not sure this video makes the argument that you think it does

First pass was about 55 air yards, actually probably a few yards less, second pass only went 50, the third one was about 60, maybe a yard or two less.

If that's the video that shows off his max arm strength, then it's easily bottom half of the NFL among starting QB's and likely in the bottom 10 in the end.

Again, it's adequate and serviceable, but the top strong armed QB's can throw it that far from a crowded pocket with the flick of the wrist, he needed perfectly clean pocket and be able to step into those throws as clean as can be to get it there.

And again, as I pointed out in my last post, it's less even about being able to make that throw as much as just having the threat of it in your back pocket to keep a safety deeper. 

There are a lot of positives about Bryce that people can talk up, but arm strength just isn't one of them, it's probably his biggest actual weakness if you don't count injury concern as that's not quite as tangible of a thing like arm strength is.

Safety's don't play 40 yards off the ball.  ~50 yards is plenty deep.

Mahomes completed 1 ball longer than 40 yards last year, a 57 yarder.  Not even 60.   Same length as the examples I posted. Does Mahomes need to work on his arm strength?  He was 1 for 8 beyond FORTY and only 2 were catchable. 

[poundaway]

Geno Smith was considered last year's most accurate deep passer, believe it or not, according to the deep ball project. 

https://www.patreon.com/posts/79668571?pr=true

He was 1 for 5 beyond 40.  The ball went 49 yards in the air.  The other 4 weren't catchable.

 

 

[tukafan21]

28 minutes ago, poundaway said:

Why compare Bryce to QBs that we could not possibly get?
We called the Bills, they wouldn't take DJ for Allen. /sarc

We've been over and over this.  When it comes to pressure/crowded pockets, Bryce is the best in this class. 

 

 

 

the discussion was about arm strength, you posted a video about arm strength, so why bring up pressure/crowded pockets?

odd

[poundaway]

Just now, tukafan21 said:

the discussion was about arm strength, you posted a video about arm strength, so why bring up pressure/crowded pockets?

odd

"armed QB's can throw it that far from a crowded pocket "

You brought up crowded pockets genius.

[tukafan21]

17 minutes ago, poundaway said:

Safety's don't play 40 yards off the ball.  ~50 yards is plenty deep.

Mahomes completed 1 ball longer than 40 yards last year, a 57 yarder.  Not even 60.   Same length as the examples I posted. Does Mahomes need to work on his arm strength?  He was 1 for 8 beyond FORTY and only 2 were catchable. 

I don't think you get it

No, they don't line up 40 yards off the ball, but if you have a speedster at WR and a QB with a monster arm, it causes safeties to back up once the ball is snapped and run with that WR running the go-route.

It's not even about completing the passes that deep, it's about having the ability to do so and thus forcing the defense to respect and defend that possibility.  It opens up underneath routes, particularly in the middle of the field, as it removes the safety from that area of the field by default.

It's like why teams with Lebron on it need to build a team filled with shooters around him.  It's to keep the defense needed to stay close to them, and thus open up space in the lane for Lebron to do his work.  To further the basketball analogy, it's like when a terrible shooter gets the ball outside the 3 point line and the defense completely sags off them because they're unafraid of them shooting the 3.  

Same concept, not hard to understand, it's about the threat of something and the defense needing to account for it.

Edited May 12, 2023 by tukafan21

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, poundaway said:

"armed QB's can throw it that far from a crowded pocket "

You brought up crowded pockets genius.

Tell me you don't get it, without telling me that you don't get it

C'mon man, I brought up the crowded pocket in the sense that Bryce needed a perfectly clean pocket to have the ability to properly step up and into that throw to get the most behind it and get it to his max throwing distance.  And only mentioned other QB's ability in the sense to showcase their arm strength in that they don't need that clean pocket to step into the throw perfectly clean to get it that far.

In short, it clearly had nothing to do with the pocket/pressure itself, was just an example of arm strength and the ability to throw it that far with the flick of a wrist.

You then brought up Bryce being best in his class at dealing with pressure and a crowded pocket, which has absolutely nothing to do with arm strength.

[Varking]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

Tell me you don't get it, without telling me that you don't get it

C'mon man, I brought up the crowded pocket in the sense that Bryce needed a perfectly clean pocket to have the ability to properly step up and into that throw to get the most behind it and get it to his max throwing distance.  And only mentioned other QB's ability in the sense to showcase their arm strength in that they don't need that clean pocket to step into the throw perfectly clean to get it that far.

In short, it clearly had nothing to do with the pocket/pressure itself, was just an example of arm strength and the ability to throw it that far with the flick of a wrist.

You then brought up Bryce being best in his class at dealing with pressure and a crowded pocket, which has absolutely nothing to do with arm strength.

It’s been five hours since my comment and not one person has provided any sort of list they think Bryce has a stronger arm than for sure. Literally every starting QB in the NFL can throw the ball 55-60 yards in the air. I can probably find college clips of any college QB making the throw that was just shown above. 

[ForJimmy]

3 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I think what people are missing in the arm strength debate with Bryce, is that yes, he has an adequate arm, which allows him to make all the throws with the necessary zip on them, but that's because he knows his limits and stays within them, which is great.

But he just flat out doesn't have that monster arm strength, and even with an NFL workout regimen, he's never going to have THAT kind of arm, which isn't the worst thing as many NFL QB's have been successful without it.

However, it does eliminate a growing element in the NFL today, and that's the uber deep ball to a speedster running a go-route.  Beyond it just being a great weapon to have as it can create monster game-changing plays, it also helps force defenses to account for it on every snap and tends to keep a safety deeper and thus take a defender out of the play on many snaps.

We won't ever have that with Bryce unfortunately, and for as great as Tyreek was with the Dolphins last year, it was clear that Tua doesn't have that monster arm either and it hurt their ability to tell Tyreek to run as fast as he can and just outrun everyone for a 70 yard bomb that guys like Mahomes can throw.  So many times last year Tyreek had the defense woefully beat and was already running behind them when he had to slow up and almost stop to catch the pass because Tua couldn't throw it far enough to allow him to keep running.

So I think people knocking his arm strength, at least I know it is with myself, isn't about him not being able to make the throws that he needs to make, but that it eliminates the possibility of a play that is becoming very useful in today's NFL, that's all.

He doesn't have an elite arm, I agree.  He is more on par with Joe Burrow, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady.  These players offset the average NFL arms with elite accuracy and anticipation.  I like to think of Young's style/skillset as a more elusive mini Burrow.  Most people have Burrow as the 2nd tier QB behind only Mahomes so I will be more than happy with this ceiling/potential as any other prospect.

[DeeJay]

Now vikings can tank this season and get that new stud in USC